One aspect of evolution that does not make sense.....

by EndofMysteries 153 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • bohm
    bohm

    One aspect of magnetism that does not make sense:

    When I hold a magnet near the fridge, the magnet knows where the fridge is because it want to grap on to the door. How is that possible? The magnet does not have eyes, or ears, and even if it had ears I cant recall telling it where the fridge is. So clearly this must mean the magnet is an alien spaceship.

    So, atheists, can you tell me how magnetism supposedly make sense?

    ps

    I am not interested in reading any books, articles, websites or postcards. Cartoons are okay as long as they do not use long words.

    I look forward to a rewarding discussion on this important scientific paradox.

  • Apognophos
    Apognophos

    Atleast from the organisms point, it must require thought since they have to see the background first.

    Yes, well it depends how you define "thought". I've been pointing to other examples of animal reflexes for comparison with the camouflage for a reason. These reflexes could also be considered to be based in thought; for instance, your wincing reflex when something is near your eyeball is based on a visual perception, and a perception could be considered a thought. But if we're taking about conscious thoughts -- "I'd better close my eyelid in case this thing hits my eye" -- then obviously this kind of thought is not involved in a reflex.

    So I don't believe that flounder and other camouflagers are creating their camouflage patterns consciously. Of course, their color-changing is also used for communication, and in these cases their state of mind is being expressed. Is this a thought? Well, humans also express themselves in various ways subconsciously while communicating. While our speech is a product of our higher mind, our body language, vocal stress, and facial expressions are a product of our underlying feelings. Similarly, when a squid "talks" to another squid with its colors, it could be a direct emotional response rather than the product of conscious thought. I'm not sure if that was what you were asking, though.

    ---------------

    Anyway, you've been asking how camouflage developed, so let me try to break it down a little more (as far as I can go, not being an expert). There are two components to the camouflage ability: an instinct/reflex to mimic the environment, and cells that can change color. Each one is useless without the other, right? Well, the cells that change color could have been used previously for communication, so they were already present. The evolutionary development of this would be no different from any other form of communication, like language or birdsong. Communication is useful because it can avoid confrontation, foster cooperation, and attract mates.

    Now, the reflex to hide using the color changes can come in much later in time; many generations later. Over the years, the brain of the animal is constantly being tweaked in random ways by the imprecision of the basic genetic process of DNA transcription. Finally, one day, a randomly-developed pathway causes the patterns entering their eyes to be sent down the nerves to the skin cells. Now, if this happened in a human, we would see no effect since our skin cannot change color (except for cofty's example of blushing), so we would never know that our brains were doing this. The pathway might be preserved for generations and do nothing, or it might quickly die out, but we would be ignorant of it either way.

    But in this particular animal whose cells already respond colorfully to their emotions, the environmental information causes mimicry by accident. The mimicry might be very crude. Perhaps only color, with no useful pattern, or a pattern that is skewed and not very believable. This is still a big advantage over this animal's pals, so he has a much better chance of surviving. Over the subsequent generations, his descendants develop slightly more and more useful color cells, which have better precision or resolution. Their reflex might be refined to work better, too. These guys are so successful that their relatives that can only change color for communication are quickly replaced, being out-reproduced by their camouflaged cousins.

    ----------------------

    Thus we see the end result today, something that seems very miraculous and intelligently-designed. Does it still seem a bit far-fetched? I think that's natural. Our brains are not good with large numbers, like the number of permutations attempted by evolution every day in our cells. But we do have many other examples in the animal kingdom of complex reflexes, and also of vestigial structures and genes that no longer help us. Evolution is a constantly bubbling cauldron of experiments in tiny gene mutations. Anything that can be tried, no matter how unlikely, will be tried.

    The only real requirement to evolve a complex feature is that the feature has to be able to be developed in genetic baby steps. Those steps may not even be useful. For instance, the ability to send environmental information to one's skin cells might develop before the skin cells can change color. This totally useless gene might last many generations simply because there is no real cost to its possessor in terms of energy use, and then, a million years later, bam! The cells of that animal gain the ability to change color, and the pre-existing signal that was being sent now serves a purpose.

    The odds might seem astronomical against this, but actually they aren't, because of how many permutations nature is constantly trying out, mostly to little or no good or harm. Once in a while, the process hits the jackpot, but this is to be expected, just like you'd expect someone buying 1,000 lottery tickets a day to eventually win the lottery within his lifetime.

  • Viviane
    Viviane

    You're free to disagree, of cours, Ag, but looking at EOMs posting history, this type of post and rejection of evidence has been going on for years with no attempt at getting actual knowledge or doing study on the subject. It's very typical of his (or hers) "gotcha" style of trying to argue against the fact of evolution.

  • Space Madness
    Space Madness

    Wow! These are some very good questions. The fact that no one has been able to provide a decent answer is telling. It reminds me of how no one could provide a valid answer to my questions about two classes of Christians before I faded. Everyone (except for Apognophos) is just saying go read a book, kind of like how everyone was telling me to go read the Bible or Watchtower instead of answering my questions. If you guys can't answer the questions then don't post anything. Better to do that than to get embarrassed like Cofty.

  • cofty
    cofty

    Space madness - what exactly is the question?

    The question in the OP about how camouflage evolved has been answered in some detail.

    EOM then ignores the answers, asks more questions that are based on wrong assumptions. Now he is asking for a detailed hypothetical explanation of the process that would give a human chameleon-like abilities. Its risible.

    If you genuinely want to understand something complex you first have to make the effort to grasp the basics. EOM isn't prepared to do that.

  • Apognophos
    Apognophos

    Sorry for the length of that post, but I felt like if I made it shorter I would be failing to give a proper explanation. I realize that the random development of a reflex to mimic the environment may be the hardest bit to swallow, although I am specifically referring to an accidental mimicry that comes from the information the eyes takes in being transmitted down to our skin cells. Can we see other examples of this in nature? Well, if you've ever felt yourself get goosebumps from a creepy thought (fear->skin), or as mentioned before, blushed when embarrassed (shame->skin), or felt nauseated when seeing something gross (revulsion->stomach) or heartbreak over a girl (sadness->heart), then you've experienced thought-to-organ pathways in the brain.

    So is it any odder that our brains could develop, by chance, a pathway that that sends something like "turn blue" to our skin when we look at blue? Not at all. In fact, looking at the color blue suppresses the production of melatonin in our brains, which in turn keeps us awake; a response that was useful because the daytime sky is blue. So we have an example of how, without our consciously noticing it, our brains decided to turn a perception into a guide for our bio-rhythms.

    Now, it may seem to be a strange assertion that evolution could experiment with our brains, randomly wiring them differently. Wouldn't we notice this happening, in terms of seeing odd, random reflexes in people? Well, what about Tourette's syndrome? Nobody really knows why it happens, but we know it's genetically based and that there are random urges that come out in the form of physical tics and/or words. There's even evidence that this syndrome may come with mental benefits which are the reason why it persists in society.

  • cofty
    cofty

    Here is a 2008 paper by Devi Stuart-Fox and Adnan Moussalli providing lots of evidence that...

    " evolutionary changes in the capacity for colour change are consistently associated with the use of social signals that are highly conspicuous to the visual system of chameleons. Moreover, capacity for colour change is unrelated to variation in the environmental backgrounds that chameleons must match in order to be camouflaged. Overall, our results suggest that the evolution of the ability to exhibit striking changes in colour evolved as a strategy to facilitate social signalling and not, as popularly believed, camouflage. "

    See I did some research for you.

  • EndofMysteries
    EndofMysteries

    Apognophos - Thanks, that was some really good critical thinking on your part. The example about how thoughts producing goosebumps, the wincing from perception to the eye, etc.

    I wasn't aware it's believed that evolutionary processes that are not for a benefit happen, such as when you mentioned " ability to send environmental information to one's skin cells might develop before the skin cells can change color." I'll have to check into that, but if so, that makes your case a bit stronger.

    Overall your response did move the impossibility of the idea over a few notches for me and gave me some things to investigate deeper, thanks.

    A big plus on your end too was instead of just quoting a book or scientist or somebody saying something along the lines of 'this is the fact and take me word for it' you used reason and specific examples.

    Having been a believing JW, I don't care if it's religion or science, I will never just take anybody's word for it no matter what their credentials are. So that's the way to reason with someone. Thanks again!

    Space Madness - Yea exactly. I won't be surprised if the discussions/debates at some point look like this.... Athiest to believer: "Go back to first grade and read the basic science books". Believer to Athiest: "Read my book of bible stories then work your way up to the bible".

  • cofty
    cofty

    Believer to Athiest: "Read my book of bible stories then work your way up to the bible".

    I am already an expert on the bible and theology. I wouldn't be so arrogant as to criticise something I didn't understand.

    Did you read the paper by Devi Stuart-Fox and Adnan Moussalli?

  • EndofMysteries
    EndofMysteries

    So cofty, why didn't you take the WT's word on being critical of them because you don't understand? Don't they teach not to be critical because you don't understand and how the GB are experts?

    Before you became athiest did you just accept what so called experts and scientists said because you believed they knew best whether you understood it or not just like you did with the governing body?

    "Fool me once, shame on me, fool me twice...."

    Perhaps that's why the WT doesn't teach about the faithful and discreet slave doctrine to bible studies because it can't be understood until they've read the basic books and stuff? So JW's are right to have to study everything before explaining the faithful and discreet slave?

    I am in college and will eventually touch upon many of these topics just due to the GE requirement. But I'll challenge anything that can't be explained and unless there is definite evidence, undisputable evidence, then all theories and probabilities I'll take exactly like religion, with a grain of salt.

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