Great job XYZ!
I find that less and less JWs really "believe" the BS.
d4g
Talked to JW's in Service Today (kinda long...sorry)
by exwhyzee 45 Replies latest jw friends
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Imminent1975
XYZ, excellent, it sounds that you showed no anger or resentment, just stating the facts of why you left. If you had appeared mad I believe they would have cut the visit short, but you were able to tell your complete story. Excellent job, maybe you lead them to think for themselves.
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exwhyzee
Thanks guys for all the nice things you've said. I'm glad I made this post now, wasn't sure if it was all that noteworthy.
There was so much more that was said in between the few lines that I shared in my first post but I didn't want to ramble (plus I'm kinda lazy when it comes to typing it all out ).
I approached them as someone who wasn't militant toward them (which I'm not) but as someone who is sad about how things turned out in terms of his own career as a JW, but who is still curious about how things are going with the Organization and with the people I centered my entire life upon (which I am). They were very unguarded and it was quite apparent they too were struggling with certain aspects of being a Witness that just don't add up. To me they seemed solid enough in their own resolve that they were able to take a look someone elses experience without it rattling them.
They knew about Beth Sarim and we chuckeled about how it was actually deeded to the Biblical worthies. There was a lot of eye rolling on the part of the Sister. I told them that I visited Beth Sarim a few months back and it was scary to me that I didn't even know about that whole nonsense until after I was "out".
Me :I wondered if I would have taken it as seriously as I did, had I known how goofy the thinking was on the part of the founders of the religion .
Them: Made noises like they agreed but didn't know what to say really and sort of gazed off into the middle distance.
Me: I suffered from terrible anxiety in the last few years of being a Witness. (They seemed to perk up a little at this revelation and I got the sense that they knew more about this than the average person)I finally went to a Counselor who was baffled by the free floating nature of my symptoms. I have an awesome wife, 2 great boys, a good job, no financial worries and yet I was plagued by sudden waves of almost debilitating panic and anxiety for no apparent reason. I was hesitant to reveal the JW side of my life to the counselor of course ,for fear of bringing reproach on the Organization and wanting to avoid entertaining worldly ideas... ya know how that goes ??
Them: They chuckled knowingly and said, "You do have to be careful though"
Me: I know but after a time I felt confident enough and revealed the JW side of my life story and suddenly it all made sense to him. He said that teaching children that God is going to destroy the world any moment, including your Dad, was a terrible form of child abuse. He said children develop all sorts of disorders when they haven't yet developed any real coping mechanisims to deal with frightening circumstances beyond their control. Many times these disorders don't show up until years later and are triggered by a stessful event. He said my anxiety, to some degree, mirrored that of some of his patients who grew up in alcoholic homes or were victims of violence. It's often easier to cope with someone who is being mean to you, than it is when someone, out of kindness or concern, is teaching you fearful things. He felt that my subconscious recognized the source of the anxiety (tribulation talk at the meetings & assemblies, AWAKE magazines with terrible photos on the covers) but my conscious mind, was not ready to recognise it.
I could see the logic but dismissed a lot of it becaues I figured it could be just Satan trying to pull me out of the truth.
Them: (him) Well he does use all sorts of avenues to get us to leave the truth...."The Truth..chuckle chuckle" you know what I mean.
Me: Ha ! those old JW phrases sound so funny now but yeah...that's what I thought too, but you know...about a week or so after that last Memorial I attended, I realized that I wasn't having any problem with this and I haven't since. In fact, some JW's from a neighboring Hall, stopped at my door about a year ago and the Sister kept saying that she thought I looked so good and so peaceful. She kept repeating this and said she seemed to remember that I was having a hard time with depression or something. I finally told her that it was anxiety that was the problem and she wasn't going to like to hear this but I left the Organization and it dissappeared almost overnight. Of course she gave me the spiel about the last days etc....LOL !
Them: Well....she was concerned....
Me: Yeahh I know... she's a sweetheart but it's frustrating when you can't get through the automatic responses they use to dismiss the possibility that you have a valid complaint.
Could you elaborate on your father in laws situation? Why did he need blood, and what former fraction that was forbidden then, would have enabled him to survive (or have a fighting chance at least), post 2000?
It was my own Father actually who died this way. He lived his life as a JW but wasn't allowed to be baptized because he was just too afraid of the door to door work. He tried and tried but he'd just freeze up and couldn't get beyond the driveway. When I was in elementary school we'd take him out with us and I'd end up going to the door while he stood in the driveway LOL ! Poor Dad, he finally stopped going to meetings because he felt like he was a lost cause and got tired of hearing about it.
in late 1997 he was about to retire and began studying again, thinking that he might be able to go in service if he didn't have to worry about running into people from work etc. Around that same time he found out he needed Bypass surgery. He signed the No Blood paperwork based on what he had learned from the Society about blood. Like most of us, he didn't know anything else about blood transfusions except for what he read in the Publications. His Dr. assured him that he wouldn't need blood and that he'd be up and walking around and back home in 3-4 days.
Long story short, a day or so after the surgery he began to weaken. It turned out that there was a leak in one of the grafts and his blood count was dangerously low. He slipped in and out of consciousness and it was too late for him to resend his medical directive on Blood. The Head Nurse turned out to be a JW, she said "Why on earth did he sign those papers...I sure wouldn't have if I wasn't baptized ." We were shocked that a JW in the medical profession would say this especially after all the Societies anti Blood hoopla and since it was too late to help our Dad.
His blood count went lower and lower despite using all the best blood building methods. At that time the Liason Committee wan't available to non JW's. at least that was our understanding. The family sat with him around the clock waiting and watching, hoping his blood count would rise. In the process, his system just gave out. Our otherwise healthy and young-for-his-age-Dad, walked in on his own two feet and never made it out.
All of his children and grandchildren who came in to see him that morning saw first hand what happens to someone who dies from lack of blood. It was very hard for us to reconcile with the "new light" that came out a short time later, that blood fractions were acceptable and use of them doesn't violate the "abstain from blood" commandment. How could that possibly be true? What about Dad....we could have given him parts of our own blood to expand his...heck...I'd have given him my blood straigh out of my arm if I could. I don't think Jehovah would hold it against me !
Had my Father heard about this, he'd have surely seen the ridiculousness of this reasoning and questioned the whole stand regarding the blood issue. He signed the No Blood Directive only because he was sure he wouldn't need it and it wouldn't come to the point where he'd actually need blood.
We were in a daze as you can imagine. The Witnesses were really nice of course....very kind words about his steadfast stand for Jehovah and how we'd be seeing him again soon in the New System. One of his long time friends (an elder) volunteered to give his Memorial talk but we had to hunt down a place to have it because they wouldn't let a non baptized person use the Hall for such a purpose. Dad would surely be in the New System they said but in This System,even though he had died for his sins, we couldn't use the Hall for his Memorial.
My Dad was a kind gentle generous and naturally good man who displayed more Christlike qualities than a good many of the Witnesses I've known over the years.
Anyway...Yesterday, I told those JW's, that all of the above experiences and others, on their own, one by one as they were happening, just seemed like isolated incidents that could be explained away using the usual JW rationalizations. But when I lay them all out like I'm doing now, I can't believe it took so long to wake up.
That's when they began telling me about their Disfellowshipped Son and ended up telling me, as they had also told him, to go and have a good life and let go of the past.
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humbled
That was great. That is your talking to the couple--but
I am sorry you lost you dad that way.
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sarahsmile
I think they will leave the borg. You probably helped them some because your experience just going to add to what they know.
Some JW thrive with being heartless which I found out at my mothers funeral service at the KH.
It is not a place to ignore a dfd one but they did with me. It was something that was shocking how cold they were. They delibrately talked with my sister but treated me as if I was not standing next to her. We were walking toward the car.
Sorry for your hurt and pain. I know it gets easier but the pain never goes away.
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JunkYardDog
very nice work you gave them a total breakdown. My hat is off to you !!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Hortensia
Would you share a little more about your son? I remember you talking about that last memorial before, and how cruelly your sick son was ignored.
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KateWild
xyz,
Thanks for sharing your story with the JWs and here with us. What an experience you had leaving, but the JWs you met know you had legitimate reasons for leaving. They obviously have a problem with the DFing policy too.
Thanks Kate xx
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joe134cd
You touched on a very good point here.
It took them nearly 3 years before they came looking for us. The Circuit Overseer came by and I told him the same thing I just told you. He was shocked and seemed perplexed that such a thing could happen. He asked me if I would like the latest magazines. I asked him why he would think I'd ever want to read anything .......
It just dose my head in this, how an organisation can spend billions of dollars and man hours trying to get new members, and yet can't spend half an hour to find out why some one has walked on them. Considering for every increase in publisher one baptised person is leaving, you would think it would be more effective to do a 50/50 split between those entering and those leaving. I guess Wt just dosnt understand this yet.
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exwhyzee
Would you share a little more about your son? I remember you talking about that last memorial before, and how cruelly your sick son was ignored.
Here's a breakdown of what happened. My wife reminded me today that it took over 3 months for the Elders to decide to DF our Son and his Fiance'
Son: Tall good looking 26 year old guy (think Tom Cruise) who had constant gossip about him circluated by local girls who wanted to be the "one". Girls spying on him, showing up at his job, taking his cell phone to read his text messages, elders questioning him, Mom's and Dad's trying to set him up...etc. One girls parents invited us out to dinner and brought along her baby album and video of her childhood for us to watch at home later. It became obvious that they were trying to get us to set their daughter up with our Son. Nice people but man was that weird !
Us: Regular but truly devoted, lifelong ordinary JW Publishers with two tall good looking, easy to raise Sons who from birth attended the same congregaton in an area with lots of young girls and a shortage of young guys.
DIL: Lovely girl, regular Aux. Pioneer, perfect match for our Son, from a small town Hall 2 hours away from our City, where most families (except hers) are related in one way or another. Lots of gossip and in-fighting. One of the Elders wives from her Hall accidently revealed that she was privy to what was discussed in our Son's Committee meeting. Nothing was done when this was reported to the Elders.
The Kids: Became engaged, she lived at home while looking for a job in our City. Both saving for their wedding and a place of their own. He traveled to see her on the weekends or she came here and stayed with us. (6-8 mos) They should have been married sooner and as is often the case, they let their "emotions" get the better of them. They came to my wife and I to ask what they should do. DIL was in tears and very embarrassed to find herself in this position.
Us: We assured them that even though they felt like it, they weren't horrible immoral monsters but rather were two young people who were already committed to one another in their hearts and it was only natural for them to want to be together this way. They should have been married sooner and it was only a matter of time before this would happen. We probably could have watched over them more but they weren't exactly teenagers so we didn't want to interfere.
The Kids: Went to talk to both sets of Elders from each of their Congregations. After more than 3 months (yes months) it was decided that two of them should be DF'd. Neither had been in any trouble before but because she, at the request of her Elders, refused to break their engagement until after they were reinstated, they had the proverbial book thrown at them. Both were DF'd. even though they were repentant and had come forward on their own, instead of keeping it a secret as many do.
Son: During the weeks while the Elders were deciding his fate, our Son noticed a suspicious lump, but put off having it looked at until after the Elders had determined his fate which he was told would be "any day now". Weeks and months went by until it became the Holidays, a time when it's difficult to get in to see a Dr. Once our Son was disfellowshipped, he tried to resume a normal life and make the best of things until he and his Fiance' were reinstated. He made an appointment to see his Dr, and it was determined that he had an advanced and dangerous form of testicular Cancer. The tumor had rapidly increased in size...had he gotten in to the Dr. even a few weeks sooner, it would have been small enough so that there wouldn't have been the worry about it having invaded his Lymph Nodes. He now needed surgery and Chemo.
Us: The kids came to us to break the news about the Cancer. Both my Wife and I each lost a parent to this disease, at a young age (my Mom, her Dad) so we were pretty frightened. So far everyone we'd known who had Cancer, hadn't survived it. It was decided that our Son would move in with us and we'd take care of him until he recovered.
So here we were, our Son was disfellowshipped, none of our friends and family were coming forward to help in any way. We realized that if he didn't survive this Cancer, we were going to have to bury him on our own. Witnesses don't attend funerals of disfellowshipped persons. His Co-workers came to see him while he was in the Hospital and during his Chemo. His Employer gave him paid time off and had disability insurance in place for these kind of circumstances. Our Co-workers offered us their sick leave so we could take time off work to care for him. My H.R. Department offered advice on seeking medical services and support Counseling. Not a word of support came from our Elders, no one came to our house to see how we were coping. Our phone stopped ringing with invitiations to go out or to have visitors. One of my Co workers said "Your Church will be a great support for your Son and a source of comfort to you and your wife" Little did they know what was really happening. How could I tell anyone at work that, our Son, who any parent would be proud to have, who would be welcomed anywhere he went, was being shunned like a criminal in his darkes hour. The neighborhood kids that our Son grew up with came by or took him out to do something fun when he felt well enough.
DIL: She was like a ray of sunshine coming over to see us while our Son was so sick. She'd get off work and drive 2 hours and be a bundle of positive energy when she arrived. Nothing we could do could make him more comfortable or brighten his spirits like she could. When he knew she was on her way over, he'd perk up and he'd come alive as soon as she walked in the door. We were so thankful that he had someone special like this. She sat up night after night with him in the hospital. When his thick curly dark hair began falling out, it was she who collected it up off his shoulders and shaved his head right there in his hospital bed. She even made it seem like fun. She put a bandana on his head and teased him about looking like a biker.
Son: It was memorial time, he was very thin pale and bald. By now two of his JW buddies on the QT, come over to see him. They had seen him at the meeting thin and yellowish and without his trademark head of hair. It made them realize how serious this really was and from the sideways glances we' d get coming into the Hall for meetings with our Son, we got the sense that the Elders weren't sure what to do with a DF'd person in such a condition. I'm sure they were a bit worried about him not surviving in time to be reinstated. Did they regret being so harsh on someone who was repentant? If so, they never said. They were very "sheepish" whenever they talked to us and seemed to want to run away. Otherwise it was as if he didn't exist.
Our Son wanted to make sure he would be reinstated soon. He forced himself to go to meetings .At the Memorial we had a guest speaker that we'd paid to have flown in from Bethel. Several non Witness visitors arrived and were welcomed by all. We listened to a very poorly done talk ,that in a muddled way, outlined Jesus ransome sacrafice and great love for the world. We heard about repentance and forgivness of sins and hope of eternal life. Prayers were offered up, bread and wine was passed around, offers of free home bible studies were extended to the strangers in our midst and an hour later and entire Congregation of people walked past our Son who was too weak to even stand and make his through the crowd and sit in the car.
US: I decided that evening that this would be the last time I ever set foot in a Kingdom Hall. If someone had called us that evening or the next day to even offer a kind word, I'm sure I'd have changed my mind. There were no such phone calls or any other form of kindness extended to us. My wife was very hurt but all that mattered to her was that her Son get healthy. She didn't care at this point what JW's had to say. She just wanted to get him through this and he wanted to get reinstated ASAP.
Kids: The Chemo sessions had to be curtailed after 11 sessions he ended up in intensive care because his immune system had been ruined to the point that he contracted Mononucleosis. On top of being sick from Chemo, he was now battling Mono and high fevers in an isolation ward. His Fiance' was allowed to be in his room briefly but only if she donned with a mask and surgical gown.
The kids decided that when he got through this, they wouldn't wait any longer, they'd just go down and get married right away, no wedding no fuss just go to a justice of the peace and get it done. They didn't have any extra money nor did they really have anyone to invite to a wedding now anyway.
My wife (bless her) had had enough of the bleakness and dark worry in our lives. She was determined that this ridiculous situation wan't going to ruin one more thing for her family and the JW's weren't going to rob of us the simple joy of having a wedding for our fistborn Son. Through this ordeal she had grown close to our future Daughter, finally she was going to have another female in this all male family and she loved this girl to bits, not only because she was a sweetheart but she was probably the one ray of hope that kept our Son going. On her own without saying a word, my wife went downtown and found several simple but elegant wedding dresss that she knew would suit the bride to a Tee. When the Bride-to-be arrived at our house for her weekly visits, my wife brought her future Daughter upstairs and surprised her with a roomfull of beautiful dresses and a few pairs of shoes to try on. They had a ball together and suddenly a real wedding was on ! They had the wedding in a park that is situated on the side of senic mountain. The Brides JW parents,siblings and Grandmother were in attendance along with my wife and I and our youngest Son. It was amazing...simple and beautiful. Even our Son looked well in his dark suit despite his shiney head . Our little group had a nice lunch arranged at a local restaurant before saying goodbye to the Newly Weds who would be honeymooning in San Diego.
Year and a half later: The kids were happily married, had a nice new apartment, attending meetings and regularly requesting to be reinstated and looking forward to being able to do things with their young friends. My Son's hair has grown back and he has regained his strength and his bi-monthly scans were showing up clear. Shortly after their first anniversary he was finally reinstated but the Elders in her Hall, decided that she needed more punishment. She had disobeyed them and refused to break off her engagement so she needed to learn to be more compliant. This meant that their friends still couldn't invite them places and that she'd have to rush out of the Hall right after meetings so people could talk to her husband. They did this until she was finally reinstated a few months later.
Us: After this ordeal I stopped going to meetings. My wife continued mainly as a support to my Son who wanted to be reinstated but was disgusted beyond repair when our Daughter in Law wasn't reinstated along with our son. She attended the D.C that year but came home fuming, at the lunch break because they had another one of those talks that was condemning higher education and were using all sorts of flimsy examples of those who Jehovah was providing for. She has never returned.
The Kids: My Son is Cancer FREE ! His wife is a delight, and ironically they attend meetings but it just isn't the same for them. The experience I've outlined here, has opened their eyes to the realities of the religion they grew up in. They realize that it's their ordeal that pushed us over the edge and technically they should limit contact with us. They don't discuss religion with us or want to hear any of the things we've discovered since leaving. They have made comments that they don't really look at the JW's as the absolute truth rather they see it as a continuation of their established way of life and way to keep their of network friends who are basically doing the same thing.
Youngest Son. At a point where he was contemplating baptisim, saw the above experience unfold before his eyes. He had been excusing the inconsistencies of the doctrines, crazy double lives of the young ones and their ensuing denial, for quite some time. Many of his JW friends were pressuring him to get baptized even though they themselves were living double lives.He went through a period of mourning where he was angry about missed opportunities for sports, friends, and education etc. He now has a teriffic girlfriend who is almost finished with her Bachelor of Nursing degree. He has earned an AA degree and will be heading to University to study Geography and Enviromental Science. He hopes to do something with the Dept. of Fisheries or Natural resources.
US: We're doing fine really, but sort of muddling along as mid 50 somethings who's whole past was erased in terms of relationships built and years spent working for a cause we believed in. That part is really going to take time to recover from. Not quite sure that we ever will.
Anyway, thanks for reading this long saga. It helps to be able to tell someone. As former JW's you just have to go away....no one wants to know you or hear anything too real. The best they can do is dismiss you saying " Go out and make new friends and live a good life"
James 2:16 If one of you says to them, "Go in peace; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it?