The Mystical View of Races

by HildaBingen 29 Replies latest jw friends

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  coffee_black

  I'll start swimming now. See you in about a year.

  cb
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  out4good3

  Could you explain to me EXACTLY how Bill Bowen is "generalizing"?

  Great question. It also illustrates just how misapplied and off the mark her previous "thought question" was. I don't recall Bowen ever leveling the accusation that all JW's are pedophiles and since there is no way the 23K can be confirmed we'll never know if it's a real or imaginary number someone just dreamed up.

  Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the issue was that there was a system and culture in place in the JW heiarchy that allows known molesters to go unchecked while the victims are silenced though threats and intimidation, all under the guise of keeping the organization clean. It's all important and drummed into JW's meeting after meeting that you must never, EVER do anything to bring reproach upon Jehovah's or the WT's name.

  Hilda

  Enlighten us as to where the line should be drawn where JWs want to make aware that there are child molesters in their midst and whether or not they are causing divisions or reproach. This whole "waiting on Jehovah" approach you people have just don't cut it.
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  HildaBingen

  Dear D:

  :Please, if all of us are part of the HUMAN race, pray tell again Hilda, how does one have "white blood" in one's self? Is this opposed to your "black", "yellow", or "red" blood?:

  You need to lighten up, hon. Take care of that anger. The expression, ____ blood means that one's ancestors were "black" "red" (in appearance) or in my case "white."

  :Something I came to conclusion early in my life was:

  Our physilogical makeup as humans are pretty much all the same. We may differ Height, Weight, and certain appendages may be longer, shorter, bigger, or smaller. But the point is...everything is the same.:

  Depending on what you mean by "everything is the same" I support you, hon.

  :Thanks to science, we see that DNA in cells cause the variety of hues in pigmentation of our outer shell ("skin"), thus there is no division of RACE. There are different ethnicities, societies, and cultures...but there are NO different forms of HUMANITY.:

  I never claimed there was. But race and humanity may be two different things, dear.

  :The only direct difference in our HUMANITY is the sexes. One is male. One is Female. (okay, okay, there are that small percentage that are born both...rare? yes. Non-HUMAN. No.) And even with this counterpart system, it does not dictate whether one is superior over the other. Each of the sexes are capable accomplishing what they want to achieve.:

  I do not believe that any race is superior to another one.

  :So please...explain to us this "WHITE BLOOD" you have in yourself. And please, clarify your heading which is entitled "The Mystical View of RACES (plural)".:

  I already explained what I meant by "white blood." Some of my ancestors looked "white." I am a descendant of the white man. That is what I meant. What do you want me to clarify about my heading? I think that one can legitimately speak of "races" without being a racist. Race may or may not be a social construct (a fictive reality). But science cannot provide an answer either way. Some types of phenomena are transrational, dear. They transcend that which is rational and resist positivistic reductions.
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  accuracy

  I do not think that people should judge a mystic on the basis of her religion. I stand for God, Christ, truth and justice. I believe in what is fair for everyone concerned. Pedophilia is wrong. But no one should invent stories about any religion just to make that organization look bad in the eyes of others.

  Salutem punctus triangulii! Greetings from one mystic to another. Attempting to "change metals to gold," as it were.

  Your citation of Joel 3:3 was interesting. I do not think I have ever seen that verse applied to pedophilia, but it does fit. Surely God and any right-thinking people condemn the exploitation of children, whatever the form it takes.

  Apart from the pedophilia, a problem that affects humanity irrespective of religion or the lack of religion, the WTS suffers from the lack of welcoming a loyal opposition. Instead, all opposition or criticism is viewed as disloyalty and something to be contained or eradicated. I think such a policy has backfired, with ominous results.

  For the religiously inclined, only God is right all the time. Others should be willing to accept criticism and correction, without viewing it as disloyalty.
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  out4good3

  Why must everyone that has an issue with the WT be classified as being "disgruntled"? It's amazing how JW apologists love to pidgeonhole people into nice little categories. But I guess with the limited WT approved educational opportunities afforded them up to and including what someone told me was the best school on the whole plant, the "Theocratic Ministry School", it's much easier to group people together when all you have to fall back on is the us vs. them mentality.

  Do you guys know I actually had a JW use that as educational experience on a resume?
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  4christ

  Hi again Hilda,
  What would you think if the figure is accurate? I suppose the only way to know for sure would be to check the files at the WT. I dont see them being forthcoming with that information. Perhaps at some point, they will be compelled by the courts to be forthcoming with that information.
  Besides, the exact number is not important. The issue is,

  DOES THE WATCHTOWER HAVE POLICIES IN PLACE THAT PROTECT PEDOPHILES?

  Why do you take a not confirming or denying stance of affiliation? If you ARE, why wouldnt you admit it? Is it something to be ashamed of? If you arent , why wouldnt you admit that? Silence speaks louder than words. I will assume you are indeed a JW until you say otherwise. saying that you would give Bill more credit if he werent a disgruntled JW also gives you away. Why is that? Would you give less credit to someone who spoke out about the Catholic pedo-priests and was "disgruntled" with that church than someone who continued in the Catholic faith? besides, seems the policies are what made him "disgruntled" in the first place. He is an insider, was an elder, knows what goes on at those meetings. He took a big risk throwing himself out there. Why shouldnt I believe him?
  What possible motive would cause him to "invent" this?
  I agree that people should not invent stories to make an org. (or an individual for that matter) look bad. What stories have been "invented"?
  peace-L
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  HildaBingen

  Dear accuracy:

  I need to work on my Latin but greetings!

  :Your citation of Joel 3:3 was interesting. I do not think I have ever seen that verse applied to pedophilia, but it does fit. Surely God and any right-thinking people condemn the exploitation of children, whatever the form it takes.:

  Thank you for seeing my point in this case.

  :Apart from the pedophilia, a problem that affects humanity irrespective of religion or the lack of religion, the WTS suffers from the lack of welcoming a loyal opposition. Instead, all opposition or criticism is viewed as disloyalty and something to be contained or eradicated. I think such a policy has backfired, with ominous results.:

  The WTS probably does have a closed system when it comes to welcoming opposition. But try to look at it from their point of view. As I understand matters, the WTS does invite Witnesses to write letters expressing their concerns about doctrine and practice. They just do not take kindly to dissidents who harm the faith of others in the org. But did not Paul also refuse to countenance Christians questioning his authority? I am not saying that the WT is like Paul. But from their point of view, they are like him.

  :For the religiously inclined, only God is right all the time. Others should be willing to accept criticism and correction, without viewing it as disloyalty.:

  Amen and amen.

  To out:

  Having an issue with the WT does not make one "disgruntled." But Bowen seems "disgruntled." Is that better?
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  sf

  <
  [From the Lucca Manuscript, lectured on in Florence by Sr Angela Carlevaris, 1999]

  Hildegard of Bingen, and other women like her, such as Hrotswitha of Gandesheim (A.D. 932-1000) and Herrad of Landesburg, followed in this learned Benedictine tradition established in German-speaking countries from England, which gave women the status of Christian equality with men. Hildegard composed music and wrote treatises on medicine, on Benedict's Rule, a play, many letters, and visionary mystical works which she also illuminated in a manner that is deeply compelling. But, unlike Lioba, she was not a pleasing person. Until the age of forty she kept to her bed. Richardis, her friend and fellow nun, then persuaded her to embark on her career as writer of letters to the leaders of Church and State in her day and to compose her mystical treatises. When Richardis left her to become an abbess at another monastery Hildegard was furious, demanding her return. Richardis, obediently, died. Hildegard ruled her monastery by means of tyrannising over her nuns with her migraines - about which she writes in her medical works and whose effect she illuminates in her mystical treatises. She is an example of a genius who is less than charitable. One admires her work, but not her desire for control. She has significant prophetic messages for us today.

  Game Over old lady.

  sKally

  If man was supposedly created in gods image, then.....holy krap...we're all doomed.-sKallyWagger

  “What a blessing such integrity keepers are to the congregation!”(5/15/02 WT magazine, pg. 27)
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  HildaBingen

  Dear 4christ:

  :What would you think if the figure is accurate? I suppose the only way to know for sure would be to check the files at the WT. I dont see them being forthcoming with that information. Perhaps at some point, they will be compelled by the courts to be forthcoming with that information.:

  I think that it is hard to know what the true figure is. That does not give Bowen the right to just pluck a number out of the air. Checking the files of the WT would not help because you and I both know that some cases of molestation go unreported. So do you think it is fair to again blame matters on the WT? If the courts force that info out of them, then so be it.

  :Besides, the exact number is not important. The issue is,
  DOES THE WATCHTOWER HAVE POLICIES IN PLACE THAT PROTECT PEDOPHILES?:

  The exact or near-exact number is important when we are talking about being truthful. I agree, if the WT has policies that enable molesters, that is bad. but at this point we do not know the answer to that question. We do, however, know that Bowen is claiming there are 23,000 cases of molestation in the US alone among Witnesses. I do not think he is being truthful. Or--at least he is not being scientific.

  :Why do you take a not confirming or denying stance of affiliation? If you ARE, why wouldnt you admit it? Is it something to be ashamed of? If you arent , why wouldnt you admit that? Silence speaks louder than words. I will assume you are indeed a JW until you say otherwise.:

  I take a non-confirming stance because I think some things transcend religious affiliation. You can consider me whatever you will. But I stand for Christ and truth.

  :saying that you would give Bill more credit if he werent a disgruntled JW also gives you away. Why is that? Would you give less credit to someone who spoke out about the Catholic pedo-priests and was "disgruntled" with that church than someone who continued in the Catholic faith? besides, seems the policies are what made him "disgruntled" in the first place.:

  The disgruntled are always hard to trust. Even among the Catholics. I am not saying that disgruntled victims are always being less than honest. But Bowen has never been molested, to my knowledge.

  :He is an insider, was an elder, knows what goes on at those meetings. He took a big risk throwing himself out there. Why shouldnt I believe him?:

  Do you know both sides of the story. If not, proceed with caution.

  :What possible motive would cause him to "invent" this?
  I agree that people should not invent stories to make an org. (or an individual for that matter) look bad. What stories have been "invented"?:

  I am still trying to figure out Bowen's motives. But I do think that he invented (or someone else did) the number 23,000. Bowen also told private details about JC meetings he sat on. That is not ethical.
• 

  Michael3000

  But his figures of 23,000 jws in the US alone being molesters seems to be a bit high.

  And how did you make the determination that this figure is "high"? Do have more accurate information? Mr. Bowen did not, as you imply, "pluck" that figure out of the air. Do your research before offering criticism.

  I might also add that he has posted things here implying that jws (in general) approve of pedophilia.

  Absoultely NOT true. What Mr. Bowen has posted was information that would lead one to conclude that - now pay close attention here, Hildy - THE POLICIES THAT THE JW HIERARCHY HAS IN PLACE MAKES IT EASY FOR PEDOPHILES TO PRACTICE THEIR ABUSE, WITHOUT BEING REPORTED TO THE AUTHORITES. Pedophilia, much like rape, is more a crime of VIOLENCE than what you call a "sexual crime". Again, more research is needed on your part before trying to criticise Mr. Bowen and others.

  We'll wait while you whip out your German/English dictionary.