Jesus was a False Prophet - But was he deluded or deceitful?

by cofty 48 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Apognophos
    Apognophos

    Schizophrenia often involves hearing voices, doesn't it? Yet Jesus rarely if ever claims to hear a voice from heaven telling him what to do. His messianic delusion could be explained by narcisissm without any resort to more exotic mental maladies.

    I do think that a great deal of the words coming out of Jesus' mouth were attributed to him by later writers in order to explain how he was going to come back, after being unexpectedly executed, or to position the early church in some way (like the warning about false messiahs, to avoid a takeover of the religion by someone claming to be Jesus redivivus).

    Even his statements against the Pharisees could be seen as dubious in light of the fact that his execution is blamed on the Pharisees even though the Romans executed him. I think someone (Paul?) wanted to shift the blame to the old Jewish system, for a reason I can only guess at. All those times that Jesus is scolding the over-scrupulous Jewish leaders could be just another way of emphasizing what Paul taught when he wrote that the Law has passed away thanks to Jesus, and that the old way of thinking was obsolete.

    Paul's message was the one that caught on, not the more orthodox Jewish message coming out of Jerusalem, so I don't find it far-fetched that the gospels were modified, perhaps after the "Jewish Armageddon" of 70CE, to place words in Jesus' mouth which condemned the (recently moribund) old Jewish system of things. The enlightened response of the pericope adulterae could well be just another propagandistic renouncement of the old Jewish laws, inserted retroactively into Jesus' teachings in order to shift the paradigm away from the failed older versions of Christianity that were either killed off in 70CE or suppressed by the Romans for being too brutal or too anti-state.

  • kaik
    kaik

    Apostle Paul was a true founder of Christianity. Jesus work was only regional, dealing predominantly with Jews in Judea, and some Samaritans and Romans citizens. Paul on the other hand was a Roman citizen a decided bringing the faith of the Jewish followers of Jesus into much larger and probably more religiously profitable level of the wast Roman Empire. Paul knew that he had very little chance with the Jewish population in Judea where he faced opposition. When he faced obstable he run to Rome to get help from Nero. The view of Jesus is shaped by two different group of people, first by apostles during his ministry, and second by Paul and Barnabas. Additionally, Acts 15:39 mention strong disagreement among the Apostles, so it was far from unified group of followers. Paul, Peter, James, and John awaited the return of Jesus in their lifetime. They hoped in Roman defeat and replacement with a Kingdom of God. Nothing had happened in the 1st century than Judea was trashed. Roman Empire survived for another 400 years before it was carved by Germanic kingdoms in 455-481.

  • nicolaou
    nicolaou

    Good topic, I pondered the same thing a few years back but leant to the conclusion that, rather than being deluded, Jesus was a liar.

  • cofty
    cofty

    Thanks for the link back to that thread Nic.

    I still wonder if Mark's account of Jesus' trial and excution describes a broken man rather than a conman who had been found out.

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    Ive specialized in the Historical Jesus since college. You call him a False Prophet. Your labels do not equal reality. Jesus was never dissed. Today he is dissed too much. I do not see what you find in Mark. Elaine Pagels did not come to your conclusion. You are entitled to your views. Don't assume that others agree with you.

    I put much more emphasis on Christ than Jesus. Prophecy is only one word of many that apply to Jesus. This gets trite. Insult, insult, insult. Your scholarship is getting sloppy. Opinions are opinions. They are not facts in neon letters. I don't usually throw my weight behind believers but you go too far, IMO. Do you think you are the only one who has read Jesus books? Millions on millions have. Rather than law, I think I would be a Jesus scholar and write a popular book to make money.

  • nicolaou
    nicolaou

    Consider the account of Jesus walking on water. A lie of course. A fabrication, embellishment, call it what you will. But remember, according to the Biblical account Peter also walked on water!!

    Well of course he didn't really - but a shared delusion seems a little less plausible to me than a shared contrivance . . .

  • cofty
    cofty

    You call him a False Prophet. Your labels do not equal reality. - BOTR

    I have offered quite a few NT references above that show Jesus was a false prophet.

    Jesus was very clear that his parousia would occur within the lifetime of his generation. That didn't happen. Therefore Jesus was a false prophet.

    His disciples and later followers planned their lives around that promise, therefore his false prophecy was damaging.

    I do not see what you find in Mark.

    Read Mark's story of Jesus' trial and execution. It is a tale of a broken and bewildered man. The triumphant, courageous Jesus who goes to the cross preaching and praying is a later development in the Jesus myth. Don't conflate the gospels, let Mark tell his story.

  • galaxie
    galaxie

    " let Mark tell his ..STORY.. enough said!!!

  • Viviane
    Viviane

    Jesus was never the Christ, he wasn't the savior of the Hebrew people. And he wasn't a prophet, what he said would come true didn't.

    Why is that so hard to grasp?

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