It was not a free ticket to heaven.
Yes it was.
And are we about to have a JW v Mormon debate? Delightful!
Why did Jesus tell the convict on the cross next to his, that he would be joining him in Heaven TODAY??
by Faithful Witness 45 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Laika
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Band on the Run
One crazy believer vs. another crazy believer. How droll!
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Cold Steel
Emeth: Comparison of 2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 6 with Genesis 6:2-4 shows that these spirits were angelic sons of God that had materialized and married in Noah’s day. At 1 Peter 3:19, 20 the Greek word for “spirits” is pneu′ma·sin, while the word rendered “souls” is psy·khai′. The “spirits” were not disembodied souls but disobedient angels; the “souls” here referred to were living people, humans, Noah and his household. What was preached to “spirits in prison” must therefore have been a message of judgment.
We’re gonna have to disagree on this one, my friend. Very few Christian scholars today believe in the idea that angels lusted after women and took them as wives. For one thing, no one had yet been resurrected; therefore, all angels were thus spirits and incapable of having sexual intercourse with flesh and blood mortals. Throughout the scriptures, the people of God have always been told that they are the children (actual offspring) of God. The “sons of men,” on the other hand, are those who are not born under the covenant. “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.” (John 7:72). Also: “For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.” (Romans 8:74)
Also note this passage from Job: “Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.” (1:6; 2:7) Thus, even before men came into the earth (Jeremiah 1:5), they were called the “sons of God.” This part of our existence was called the “first estate” and our existence on Earth is our “second estate.” That’s why the Lord told Jeremiah that before He knew him, He called him and ordained him to the ministry. It’s also why, when the Lord healed the man who was “born blind,” the apostles asked, “Master, who did sin, this man or his parents that he was born blind?” How could that man have sinned before his birth if he did not previously exist?
But when did this happen? Satan and his angels rebelled before Adam was placed in the Garden. And he drew away a third of the sons of God, and they were cast to Earth. That’s what is meant in the book of Revelation when John writes that the tail of the serpent drew away a third of the stars. This did not happen in the days of the flood, but preceding the creation of the earth.
Spirits are not able to become flesh, and there is no precedent for that ever happening. Satan and his angels are not flesh, and they will never be able to take upon them flesh. Because we came to Earth and because of the Atonement, we will all be resurrected, both good and evil. Those who receive eternal life will become co-heirs with Christ, and receive all that the Father has.
Peter 4:6: “For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.” The notion that the early Christians believed that the soul sleeps at death is only popular among Adventists, and Ecclesiastes 9:5 is a philosophical view of the writer. If Solomon is the author, remember that he wasn’t a prophet and that this book is a philosophical book and not an eschatological one. At the end of his life Solomon had numerous wives and concubines who worshiped false gods and who manipulated him into erecting altars to their gods. He had sinned against God and his writings reflect his own failures. Even so, he later states that “then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return to God who gave it.” (Ecclesiastes 12:7) The terms “spirit” and “breath” mean the same in both Hebrew and Greek, but in context, it’s highly unlikely that the “breath” returns to God.
Peter tells us that while Jesus’ body was in the tomb, his spirit went to Paradise, which, as we’ve seen, is the spirit world. (See Origen’s statement.) Origen was a very early church father, and Josephus was an old-school Jew; yet both believed that men had spirits. Origen, who studied the writings of those in the early church, taught unabashedly that the spirits of men go to Paradise, a place of teaching. This also is completely consistent with many of the near death experiences written by people in our own day. Certain things are consistent in such accounts:
The spirit realm is as real a place as this world is to us. There are buildings of astounding beauty, colors far exceeding those in our world and comprised of people we knew while we were alive. Many report that animals roam freely, and one person said he saw a lion of exquisite beauty, and that he instinctively became fearful. His guide, sensing his fear, explained that all enmity between man and beast no longer exists, nor is there anything to fear from harm. “Can I pet him,” the man said? The guide nodded and said, “Ask him.” The author then reports that the lion was able to communicate with him, and that he also told him he had nothing to fear. He then moved his head under the man’s hand and tipped it up so that his hands lay between its ears. He said that the lion felt just as solid to him as a real lion would. The spirit world, according to the vast majority, has mountains, trees, gardens, homes and places of learning. They also say it’s big, far bigger than our earth.
Again, I mention this because it’s consistent with what the early Christians taught. Some even report seeing friends they knew before they came to the earth, people who had lived in other periods of time. No one had wings, like that ridiculous movie making the rounds, Heaven Is For Real, claims. If man really is the offspring of God, then it’s unlikely he has wings like a chicken.
One woman I’ve communicated with by e-mail has everything that happened to her documented. Her death, her time in the morgue, the time she flatlined and the time she returned to her body (according to hospital personnel). Interestingly, she said the people who had the most difficult times adjusting to life in the spirit were the ones who didn’t believe in it.
Bottom line, how can we trust the Bible when people can read it in so many ways? Why would Jesus go to the spirit world just to render judgment and condemn those who lived in the days of Noah? Don’t you think there were people in the world during the days of Noah—children, people who never had the chance to hear Noah’s message or who may have just been misled? Then there were many people since who also could benefit from being taught the gospel...like the malefactor on the cross. In the end you believe as you wish. We have enough extrabiblical writings now from the second and third centuries to know for a fact that the early Christians believed man has a spirit.
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Cold Steel
Laika: Yes it was. And are we about to have a JW v Mormon debate? Delightful!
I think you misunderstood my answer. I don't for a moment doubt that the malefactor will gain eternal life through the Atonement; my point is that people don't go to Heaven without first understanding the Gospel. Our earth probations don't always end at death. Jesus was saying to the malefactor, "Today shalt thou be with me in Paradise." That doesn't mean the man was resurrected or went to be with God. Jesus went to Paradise, but he didn't go to Heaven. I suspect the second malefactor also received an opportunity to hear the Gospel as well. We don't know his past or what he would say if he also had an opportunity to hear it.
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Laika
I didn't know Mormons believed in purgatory, that's interesting.
my point is that people don't go to Heaven without first understanding the Gospel.
'You are forgiven' is not that difficult to understand Cold Steel. What do you think the gospel is apart from this?
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emeth
@Cold Steel i dont care about modern day christian 'scholars'
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perfect1
Wow. This topic has suprised me. Dont you believers believe Jesus could do miracles and multiply things and change them into other substances. Didnt he float into the sky at the end. This debate sounds like Jesus offered the other guy a plane ticket to Hawaii. Some of you are like, impossible, he could not go to Hawaii, it didnt exist, or, he could not go to Hawaii, because he was in Detriot! As if you were there, or as if J needs a ticket! then: how could he have lied to us, etc.
To me the verse says: Today you will be with me in Hawaii. And heres the thing. Yes. I can believe that they went to Hawaii, took a 3 day Vacay, and then Jesus had to get back to it so he made another appearance before checking out for good.
I am not even big on Jesus but I take what he says at face value. I dont try to make it match what I believe. Plus, he had superpowers, so he can do whatever he wants, Paradise, Hawaii, whatevs. Where is your faith, believers.
To the OP: I think you real question is, Can I go with Jesus to Hawaii, like now?
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Phizzy
There is no possible way of knowing what words Jesus ever uttered. The Gospels were written decades after Jesus lived, (assuming he is not entirely a fiction), and we have nothing close to an original of the Gospels, so the content of what we do have, even if you ignore the doubtful knowledge of the authors, cannot be trusted.
We know for sure that the copies we do have are edited, and contain errors.
To argue about a phrase in such a work, or works is totally pointless.
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Band on the Run
Phizzy,
Jesus likely said what is in synoptic Gospels. Scholars argued that an earlier document contained Jesus sayings but no narratives. There are sayings that most NT scholars agree. It has been decades since I researched Q. I do recall that the stark, what does he mean ones are considered most likely. Perhaps what we call Q will show up someday. I recall, too, that ancient people in a society of not literate people were able to remember far more than we can today.
I met an illiterate woman and was astounded at what she could remember compared to me.
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Cold Steel
Laika: I didn't know Mormons believed in purgatory, that's interesting.
It's not Purgatory. No one is "prayed" out. Again, as pointed out above, Origen described it thus: “After death, I think the saints go to Paradise, a place of teaching, a school of the spirits in which everything they saw on earth will be made clear to them. Those who were pure in heart will progress more rapidly, reaching the kingdom of heaven by definite steps or degrees.”
This was the view of the early Christians. Or do you think people instantly go to heaven or hell upon their deaths? It is my belief that a person can be neither saved nor damned in ignorance. That's why Peter said the gospel was preached to those who are dead; that they may be judged as if they were in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Peter 4)
Emeth: Cold Steel i dont care about modern day christian 'scholars'
That's up to you. It's one reason the Adventist position has been so thoroughly discredited. It's a fact that ancient Judaism and Christianity believed that men had spirits. And many even believed in premortality, which was branded a heresy in the fourth century. The Greeks had nothing to do with bringing that concept to Christianity because it was already there. It's all throughout extra-biblical Christian writings of the day. The so-called Apocalypse of Peter, which almost made it into our Bible (instead of the Apocalypse of John) is full of it. If the Governing Body continues to hold to the Adventist position, they'll have to ignore reams of evidence to the contrary. Man does not sleep at death. Only his body sleeps.