There Was No First Human

by cofty 266 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • snare&racket
    snare&racket

    There is no meeting in Brussells where all the scientists get together to discuss the problem of defining species, it is simply that there are sevral ways of seperating genetic prgression i.e. species.

    The most common is the most obvious, its day one biology class....when an animal becomes so diverted from its parent species that it can no longer breed with it, it is a new species.

    The issue?

    In the most true evolutionary form, this is about genes being so different to the original species genes they can no longer procreate. In simple terms, the dna code is so different that they no longer can be read together. Like trying to mash a french book and a german book together.

    But some biologists include mechanical restriction too, like a yorkshire terrier not being able to procreate with a greyhound, because it simply can't reach!

    There is no actual debate however and no real use for a definition of a species. There is no gold standard or perfect example of a specific species, unless the environment stops changing, which it won't and on top of that all species would have to adopt the same enviroment, i.e. have the same influences to the genes.. then you could narrow it down, but this is hypothetical beyond possible. Environment includes predators, weather, grography, climate etc etc....so many variables on one planet, what is useful to a human here in the UK is not useful to a human in west Africa... black pigmentation and as said, sickle cell for malaria protection.

    It isn't that science is in turmoil over the issue, Watchtower used to quotemine as if there was disagreements in science, in reality there is no right answer and the scientists differ depending on their objective. To think there can be a blueprint for a species is to not know or understand biology, specifically evolution. It is a constant variation in all directions, gene by gene, baby by baby... only the enviroment will dictate the most suitable, the fittest.

  • DJS
    DJS

    Viviane and Kate,

    As I have previously mentioned, you two are among the few posters whose comments I read and look forward to. Viv, the only thing I would add to this is that Kate is newly out of the Borg and is carrying a lot of recent pain and stress from it. That she is willingly participating in non-theist discussions, without hijacking them or simply repeating theist nonsense mantras; it would seem to me that Kate is searching and trying to understand her own paths, both former and future in addition to helping others. I'm preparing her official atheist certiticate (platinum jewel encrusted frame with a pink border). Now you two get along or I will so come in here.

    I'm glad you are both here.

  • LisaRose
    LisaRose

    I agree with DJS. I think Kate says things that others might be afraid to say, you might not agree with her, but you know there are a lot of others who feel the same as she does, but are afraid to say so. It may be frustrating, but it is a useful exercise to debate these things, imo.

  • atrapado
    atrapado

    talesin maybe jws doesn't want to reply anymore but your " My point? Know your facts, before you make statements in a debate."

    I find it interesting because you say the argument is wrong because green is not a primary color. Do you know there are different basis? Do you know there is RGB and is used extensively? You can represent any color using that basis is limited by how many bits you assign to RGB(red, green, blue)? jws is correct that if you set a threashold maybe your eyes cannot tell where the change occurs but a computer using RGB values would be able to tell where it occurs and draw a line for you. Yellow is a mix of red and green in RGB.

    Viviane I think I don't explain my self well. The point about infinity was that for example you can count the infinity of all integers but you cannot count the infinity of real numbers. Different infinities are not equal. And since our sample is finite there is no reason why we couldn't create a filter. You say unknows and uncertainties. That is the reason you add variables with ranges. Noise on signals is an unknow but it doesn't stop us from modeling them. If you had all the data you would be able to created it I have no doubt, if you don't have all the data I agree that you will never be able with 100.0% certainty say I found the first human or the set of first humans(since multiple could be born at the same time). And since our data is so limited such a filter would only work in theory if you say it wont you obviously don't understand what I am saying and there is no point on to continue to debate.

  • cofty
    cofty

    atrapado - Even if we had the entire DNA code and epigenetic information of every hominid that ever lived in the past 3 million years it would still be impossible to identify the first human. No such person ever existed.

    You find this hard to grasp because you fail to understand a few very basic points about evolution. All of them have been explained a number of times in this thread.

  • atrapado
    atrapado

    cofty you sound like religous people that say you cannot ask were God came from because by their definition God was always there. You failed to grasp my point that if you create a definition for what a human is you would be able to test all ancestors and find the first human or the set of first humans.

  • cofty
    cofty

    No I get your point - I and others have explained at length, numerous times, why it is wrong.

  • atrapado
    atrapado

    No you haven't. The only thing you guys have explained is that such a definition MIGHT BE impossible to formulate. Those are 2 completely different problems.

  • cofty
    cofty

    Not "MIGHT BE" - is.

    Please tell me who you think this theoretical first human reproduced with.

  • atrapado
    atrapado

    Lets assume humans are define by a sequence of 50 ones and 50 zeros. The first ancester we look at is all zeros. As they progress at some point someone goes from 49 ones to 50 ones. So he is now human because he got 50 ones and 50 zeros he can reproduce with any ancestor that has 49 ones and 51 zeros, or 50x50.

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