by blondie 44 Replies latest social current
>>How can these guys lie with a straight face? I never could.<<
Hard work and a LOT of practice, Prisca!
>>That has to be the biggest, steaming load I've seen eminating from Brooklyn in some time. Damn, but it smells bad!<<
Very well said, SYN....
Annie
UADNA-NY, Upstate Division
Shredded families and ruined lives;
The WBTS has MUCH to answer for......
Hugs,
Sunspot
I think that the reporter, Richard Scheinin did the right thing by asking David Semonian to answer some questions about the JWs.
Now I suggest that WE can do a good thing by sending Mr. Scheinin an email to point out various "inaccuracies" in Semonian's statements.
You can email Richard Scheinin at [email protected]. Help him appreciate the truth.
- Nathan Natas
UADNA (Unseen Apostate Directorate of North America)
Q Has the Watchtower ``zigzagged'' on doctrine?A We've never claimed to be infallible, inspired or perfect as an organization. And so it's a fact that with increased knowledge, as we increase our study of the Bible and come to a better understanding, that from time to time we will make adjustments. We humbly do that.
Although they do not claim infalillibility, they do not "humbly" acknowledge or apologize for specific areas where they have made mistakes but instead quietly change to a new position. Although they do not claim to be infallible, present doctrine must be adhered to as if it were infallible and no deviation from it is permitted, even if a future change reveals a present belief to be flawed.
Q How is rape viewed?While it is true that rape is viewed as a horrible crime, their handling it with "the utmost compassion" includes a judicial committee to determine whether she somehow provoked the rape by what she was wearing or whether it really was rape or not. There is no mention of past policies where a woman could have been disfellowshipped if she did not scream during a rape.A Any time a woman is sexually assaulted, we view it as a horrible crime. And we are there -- the elders, the congregation -- to support that person. We handle it with the utmost compassion.
Q Is the organization a direct channel between God and humanity?Again, although they admit to not being infallible, in actual practice they must be obeyed as though they were infallible because it is believed God is using these men to carry out his wishes. Obedience and loyalty to the "organization" is equated with obedience and loyalty to God. It is believed that a person cannot be loyal to God without being loyal to this organization.A Again, our governing body has never claimed that our organization is inspired or infallible. Instead they, our governing body, study the Bible diligently and through prayer they make a request for his Holy Spirit to direct them and be upon them. And with his help, they come to decisions. So we believe this to be the channel that God is using today. But our governing body has said that it is not inspired or infallible.
Q Are close friendships tolerated with non-Witnesses?Basically Witnesses believe those who are not Witnesses will be destroyed at Armageddon. Since these ones are "fit for destruction" and are deemed a harmful influence or bad association, all association beyond what is necessary (ie. secular work, school) is discouraged. If one reads between the lines of the WT reply one can sense the subtle contempt and prejudice the organization holds toward non-Witnesses.A A person ultimately has the right to choose his friends. However, we've always encouraged members to use the Bible as a guide. Proverbs 13:20 says, ``He that is walking with wise persons will become wise. But he that is having dealings with the stupid ones will fare badly.'' Scripture such as that shows the wisdom of associating with a people who base their lives on God's standards.
Q What is ``disfellowshipping''?A It involves someone who has committed a serious spiritual violation, such as adultery or stealing; the Bible directs that they receive a readjustment. They usually meet with three elders of the congregation, who will see if the alleged accusation is true, because sometimes it's not. And the elders will see whether the person confesses or whether there are witnesses to the act.And if it is true, the Scriptures say to readjust the person, help them come to their senses that what they did was wrong, to show them that Jehovah God is very merciful if they change their course. So it's a very loving arrangement. The aim is to keep the person in good standing with God and the congregation.
It is true a person can be disfellowshipped for adultery and stealing, but also for things such as questioning present doctrines that they admit are not infallible. In the past people were disfellowshipped for accepting organ transplants or not screaming when they were raped, which policies were quietly abandoned because they were "fallible". In many instances people are disfellowshipped for breaking "organizational policy" and not "serious Scriptural violation".
While the claim is made that disfellowshipping is done to "help" the individual, many times it is done to punish the individual or to silence criticism against the organization from members who may have legitimate concerns.
These answers given by the WT are only half true because they do not give a completely honest and balanced response to the questions asked. The answers the WT has been given lately are so misleading and deceptive to the unknowing public that it is really disturbing.
Path
I would not characterize Semonian's comments as LIES LIES LIES. He didn't answer the questions with the greatest straightforwardness, but why should he?
Q: "What is disfellowshipping?"
A: "It is when three sex-crazed power-hungry men corner an innocent little JW girl in a backroom and make her tell them everything about her sex life and then pronounce her as evil, wicked and satanic and force all her friends to HATE HER WITH A COMPLETE HATRED."
If you read the comments by some on this board, that is what they'd have Semonian answer.
The fact is, every group or organization or association has certain rules to follow. If you don't follow the rules, the group will want to know why you aren't doing so. JWs only automatically DA people for a few things. Most of them time the judicial councils meet in an attempt to NOT HAVE TO DF.
There is no question that a lot of JW thinking and practice ought to be reformed. But Semonian's comments were not significantly misdirecting his audience.
Instead they, our governing body, study the Bible diligently and through prayer they make a request for his Holy Spirit to direct them and be upon them. And with his help, they come to decisions.
Holy Spirit?
Who the hell is this Hoiy Spirit guy?
Hi Cygnus, I agree, the guy wasn't lying BUT that's the point!
I think it is disgusting, unthinkable even, that women would have to discuss the details of their rape, or that young girls should
have to discuss details of the crime of sexual abuse against them alone with three men, and at the very least without a parent, guardian or "sister" present. And if you think the experience is a loving chat, ask my sister. It isn't called a judicial committee for nothing.
I remember my sister even later when she was a teenager saying she talked about masterbating with these men, and I cringed. Even then, when I was super-Witness, I thought that was too much to ask!
I'd rather be stoned than sit in front of any three elders in the world!
Email this gentleman your experiences with the brothers "compassion" of a rape.
I emailed him this morning with the following:
I'm sure that she's included the references in her book however Diane Wilson has written an essay on the subject of rape which I'm including as a link here:Slipnslidemaster:"Your feeble skills are no match for the power of the darkside."http://www.freeminds.org/psych/rape.htm
In addition to the horrible historical treatment of rape victims, which I'm sure you have or will recieve testimonials describing the outrageous "compassion" that has been shown to the victims.
You may want to check out quotes from various pieces of literature that the Jehovah's Witnesses have published over the years about rape here:
http://quotes.jehovahswitnesses.com/rape_is_fornication.htm
and
http://quotes.jehovahswitnesses.com/rape_not_fornication.htm
-------------
Regarding their "adjustments" of doctrine, "new light" or "tacking" here is another essay on the subject:
http://www.geocities.com/veniceexjw/tacking.html
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David Semonian and the Jehovah's Witnesses Governing Body are excellent at saying perfectly reasonable explainations for everything. In fact they excel at that, however scratch the surface of 132 years of publication and 6,000,000 peoples lives and you find a MUCH different picture.
Ask those same questions to the average Witness that knocks at your door and I think that the answers won't be as polished as David Semonian's.
I am sorry that I'm emailing your anonymously. I was raised as one of Jehovah's Witnesses but keep my identity secret so that my views don't cost me my family and friends by disfellowshipping.
Unseen Apostate Directorate of North America
Most of them time the judicial councils meet in an attempt to NOT HAVE TO DF.
I would have to disagree with this statement, and change it to SOME of the time, rather than MOST of the time.
Most of the time, disfellowshipping is used to rid the congregation of those who make the elders uneasy....no matter how repentent the person might be.
morris,
Actually some were responding to the thread that Semonian was lying. I did not see any lies, especially not any LIES LIES LIES.
If certain elders treated rape or molestation victims in a less than ethical manner, the Society's language in certain articles or poor directions from GB-appointed circuit overseers could be partly responsible.
But the fact is: accusation of rape or child molestation is perhaps the worst allegation that could be made against somebody, especially if that person is a professed Christian and otherwise seemingly upstanding in conduct and behavior. Asking for proof of the allegation including even the most intimate circumstances of the situation is not at all beyond the realms of good taste. Have elders taken that too far? Yes, I'm sure they have. Have elders made wrong decisions? Yes, I'm sure they have.
Put yourself in their shoes, though. And remember that when these events occurred all those involved were JWs. A long time ago I told myself I would never be an elder because the responsibility they have to shoulder and the decisions they have to make must be overwhelming at times.
Cygnus-
Obviously your reference to not seeing any lies..
especially not any LIES LIES LIESwas directed at me, as I was the one who made that statement.
If you actually read and comprehend the context of my post, you would see that my pointing out their contradictions from one public relations interview in contrast to their written literature is directed at the "inspired organization" subject matter.
In your post you only made reference to the child molestation issue.
I specifically address the:
in reference to current stance onLIES LIES LIES
not being an inspired, infallible, or perfect organizationas Semonian so eloquently stated.
How many times have you heard the rank&file JW rationalize that:
The people are imperfect, but the organization is perfect
to compensate for any errors found within elder deeds or doctrine?
It is an unwritten law.
Hearsay and verbal wavering aside, to compound upon my evidence exposing their deceit, I have substantiated OBVIOUS proof that Semonian lied with direct quotes from his interview, and direct quotes from WT literature which PROVE he is lying.
Get your facts straight Cyg.. then refer to me about not seeing any lies.
If you cannot see the blatant contradiction and completely opposite stance on the matter they project, then you are more naive and blind than I first thought.
I am not one to bite my tongue, I have not liked you for quite some time.
Your WT-apologist comments and rationalization of their actions are your opinion and right to make on this discussion board, but your saying that you do not see any lies within the comments the JW made is lunacy.
