I suppose up in a place like Northumberland where there are very few muslims it might make sense to talk of concepts like 'the myth of moderate muslims' but when you live in big multicultural city like London it comes across as a bit daft to be honest. I work with muslims, I play sports with them, I even drink beer with a few of them, plenty of moderate & liberal muslims in my community!
Lifting the Veil on "Islamophobia"
by cofty 108 Replies latest social current
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Oubliette
Cofty, this a fascinating interview. Both Sam Harris and Ayaan Hirsi Ali are very articulate in explaining the issues. I wasn't that familiar with her life-story before so I found it a little hard to follow, but the both explain the issues very clearly.
This
Anyone who likens the criticism of Islam as a doctrine to a hatred of Muslims as people—or to anti-Semitism, racism, and other forms of bigotry—has made it more difficult for Muslims who are truly suffering to speak about their problems. It never ceases to amaze me that when one complains about Muslim theocrats abusing Muslim women and freethinkers, one inevitably gets accused of anti-Muslim bigotry.
We could substitute a few words and find that it applies exactly to the situation in JW-land:
Anyone who likens the criticism of WT Theology as a doctrine to a hatred of Jehovah's Witnesses (JWs) as people ... has made it more difficult for JWs who are truly suffering to speak about their problems. It never ceases to amaze me that when one complains about WT theocrats abusing JW women and freethinkers, one inevitably gets accused of anti-JW bigotry.
But of course, this is the point: authoritarian, fundamentalist extremism of any brand is inherently oppressive. Invariably, whenever it falls under the umbrella of religion, it often gets a pass.
People need to put "political correctness" and the fear that it induces aside and be courageous enough to say mistreatment of anyone is wrong. Any claims or assertions of "freedom of religion" are unacceptable as justification for the abuse of others and a corresponding violation of their human rights. Welcome to the 21st Century. Play by modern rules or go home.
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cofty
I work with muslims, I play sports with them, I even drink beer with a few of them, plenty of moderate & liberal muslims in my community! - Laika
And do they treat wowen as 100% equals with men?
Do they believe that you will burn in hell unless you reconvert to Islam?
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Apognophos
Islam obviously has issues, but the lands where the extreme forms of it are predominant are third-world countries, and so, as with Christianity and Judaism, the strict Islamic societies will mellow out over time if they modernize. In other words, Islam is just where Judeochristianity was a few hundred years ago, and I expect that they won't take nearly that long to catch up, owing to the speed of changes in the world today.
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cofty
the lands where the extreme forms of it are predominant are third-world countries
Does this look like a third world country?
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Oubliette
Cofty, where is that? Dubai?
BTW, it must be because of the title/topic of this thread, but there is an ad for Muslima.com dating site under your comment!
Two of the three women pictured are wearing hijabs.
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Laika
They treat woman as equals, yes. Why did you misquote me?
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cofty
Why did you misquote me?
Where?
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Laika
You added 'I think in some ways' to the beginning of your quote, sorry, I thought you might be implying something but it was obviously an error, no worries.
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cofty
Sorry fixed that. It was an edit that went wrong.
I would suggest that if you drink with these Muslim men then they are not Muslims in a religious sense.
It would be like somebody saying they work beside a nice JW who smokes, gets drunk and doesn't believe non-JWs will die at armageddon.
I am talking about religious Muslims.
