Lifting the Veil on "Islamophobia"

by cofty 108 Replies latest social current

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  Ruby456

  Cofty

  Most liberals think that religion is never the true source of a person’s bad behavior. Even when jihadists explicitly state their religious motivations—they believe that they have an obligation to kill apostates and blasphemers, and they want to get into Paradise—liberal academics, journalists, and politicians insist on looking for deeper reasons for their actions. However, when people give economic, political, or psychological reasons for doing whatever it is they do, everyone accepts those reasons at face value. - Sam Harris

  sam harris expects us to do the same for him or is he somehow (in his justification for torture for example) excepted from the above reasoning.
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  cofty

  Odd question. Harris isn't religious.

  If you are interested in what he actually said about torture click here...

  If you want to debate it let's make that a new thread.
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  bohm

  Justitia Themis:

  The VAST MAJORITY of Muslims think the Quranic text concerning infidels and apostates applied only to a specific time period in history, just like Xians claim that the Old Testament rules applied only before Christ (thereby absolving Jehovah of things like genocide).

  Well [citation needed]. lets discuss some numbers:

  http://www.policyexchange.org.uk/images/publications/living%20apart%20together%20-%20jan%2007.pdf

  59% of Muslims would prefer to live under British law, compared to 28% who would prefer to live under sharia law. 37% of 16-24 year olds prefer sharia compared to 17% of 55+ year olds.

  36% of 16-24 year olds believe if a Muslim converts to another religion they should be punished by death, compared to 19% of 55+ year olds

  So somewhere between 20-30% of muslims in britain believe in death for a thought-crime. Is 70-80% a vast majority in this context? How would you feel about some other group in your country where about 1/4th believed in the death penalty for thought-crimes?

  I am sorry I cannot give you any examples, even the neo-nazis around my neck of the woods don't believe such a thing anymore.

  Mind this is britain, presumably muslims in britain (ignoring the converts) originated from those who had to flee their home country due to poverty or opression as well as those who immigrated because they had many resources. My point being a person might suspect muslims in britain represent the more liberal branch of islam. Lets look at some larger muslim countries:

  http://www.pewglobal.org/files/2010/12/Pew-Global-Attitudes-Muslim-Report-FINAL-December-2-2010.pdf

  At least three-quarters of Muslims in Egypt and Pakistan say they would favor making each of the following the law in their countries: stoning people who commit adultery, whippings and cutting off of hands for crimes like theft and robbery and the death penalty for those who leave the Muslim religion. Majorities of Muslims in Jordan and Nigeria also favor these harsh punishments

  Is this the "VAST MAJORITY"of muslims you are talking about who does not favor the death penalty?

  Now here is the basic point: Is Islam a good ideological position? Why do you think so many muslims, even when having access to some of the best education in the world, read their quran and go to their mosques and arrive at the false belief apostates should be killed? How do you think that happends so frequently?

  Okay lets suppose about 25% of brittish muslism are a bunch of nitwits and ditto for 2/3rds of those in pakistan. What about those who study the quran professionally. From wikipedia:

  The majority of Muslim scholars hold to the traditional view that apostasy is punishable by death or imprisonment until repentance, at least for adult men of sound mind

  well color me confused again -- are these scholars too unable to really read the Quran for what it says?

  Tell me, have you read the Quran?
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  Ruby456

  make a new thread if you want cofty but I am simply following up on the issue of the absence rights and democracy in Islamic countries that you yourself have raised in this topic and yet when I draw yor attention to Sam harris' stance on justifying taking away rights from those whom he deems fit for torture you ask me to discuss the topic on a new thread. Fine lets do it but please understand that I do have Harris' book and have found him thought provoking on many issues but I'm not going to take his views on board without questioning his hypocrisies as well particularly as he does not allow much leeway to the other side. Perhaps calling him out on his double standards will make him realise that the issues he shares his thoughts on are not as black and white as he wishes to portray him.
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  Apognophos

  Most liberals think that religion is never the true source of a person’s bad behavior. Even when jihadists explicitly state their religious motivations—they believe that they have an obligation to kill apostates and blasphemers, and they want to get into Paradise—liberal academics, journalists, and politicians insist on looking for deeper reasons for their actions. However, when people give economic, political, or psychological reasons for doing whatever it is they do, everyone accepts those reasons at face value.

  A person picks a religion that suits his needs and wants (besides those of us who are raised in a religion we didn't ask for). And within each religion (JWs, Muslims, etc.) people have a range of expression to choose from -- lax to extreme. The ones who are extreme clearly have reasons for being that way. I would never claim that all religion is harmless, and it would be idiotic for anyone on this particular forum to suggest that. But that's a straw man; what I believe many people are saying is not that Islam doesn't have any potentially harmful beliefs, but rather that if you removed the underlying issues these people face -- poverty, political/racial vendettas, social inequality, mental disorders -- they would mellow out and have no more desire to throw their lives away for these beliefs.

  To suggest that Islam is somehow more dangerous than Christianity, when Christians had their own jihads in past centuries that we call the Crusades, and when England once publicly tortured and beheaded criminals, is ignorant of history and of the natural progression of a society over time. Extreme Muslims are exactly where some Christians were in a past era. What changed for Christians will change for Muslims as well, given time. The immigrant communities just need to integrate with the surrounding society, which they will eventually, and the standards of living need to be raised for the extremist hotspots, which hopefully will happen.
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  cofty

  Apog - Islam is centuries behind christianity in adpating their ancient holy books to the reality of human ethics.

  You, me Harris and Ayaan Hirsi Ali all agree on this.

  if you removed the underlying issues these people face -- poverty, political/racial vendettas, social inequality, mental disorders -- they would mellow out and have no more desire to throw their lives away for these beliefs.

  I could not disagree more. Islam is a violent, hateful and mysogynisitc religion at its very heart. Saudi is as prosperous as any nation on earth and it is still living in the dark ages as far as ethics is concerned.

  Islam is toxic to social progress.

  Ruby - this is about the experience of a Muslim apostate Ayaan Hirsi Ali. Not about whether or not Harris' ethics are consistent.
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  talesin

  But it only threatened to affect Muslim women. No one else was suddenly going to find themselves in a Musliam tribunal for some reason, right?

  Wow. Just wow.

  Uh, it sets a precedent for ethnic and/or religious groups to have their own set of laws that supersede that of the country they chose to live in. Those laws severely oppress Canadian Women - who no doubt believed that once they came to Canada, they would be FREE.

  So, for example, if they were successful, a Muslim woman could be refused the right to divorce her extremely abusive husband (Sharia Law), whereas I, as a Canadian citizen, have the right to a no-fault divorce. I am the equal of my husband, not chattel.

  Your reaction to this really shows how little some people care about oppression and abuse, as long as it doesn't personally affect them.

  tal
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  Hummingbird001

  Apog:

  To suggest that Islam is somehow more dangerous than Christianity, when Christians had their own jihads in past centuries that we call the Crusades, and when England once publicly tortured and beheaded criminals, is ignorant of history and of the natural progression of a society over time. Extreme Muslims are exactly where some Christians were in a past era.

  That is EXACTLY the point, though. Society progresses and learns from the past. The world, in general, reacts in horror when atrocities happen in a country.

  What is it about Islam that makes it ignore documented history and want to commit the same atrocities, while the rest of the world is appalled by such things?

  I'm not sure it's in Islam's best interests for the rest of the world to sit back and say, "Oh well, they'll figure it out." as you suggest.
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  Ruby456

  cofty - yes I know that this thread is about a muslim apostate - Ayyaan Hirsi Ali - but her solution is for Islam to be crushed entirely. Out of concern for her because of her experiences I simply have not had the heart to take her ultra right wing views to task. I'm just shocked
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  Apognophos

  Your reaction to this really shows how little some people care about oppression and abuse, as long as it doesn't personally affect them.

  Sorry, you missed my point, talesin. I probably should have been clearer. At the time, I was making the point that Muslim morals are not going to overtake Western ones even if the courts allowed Muslim communities to handle their own cases. I thought you were saying that, if this had been allowed to happen, it would have impinged on your personal freedoms.

  I do think it's a problem that Muslim women are treated like this, but I was trying to figure out what the overall concern sometimes labeled Islamophobia was all about. It seemed to me that people were saying "the Muslims are gonna take over". Maybe I misunderstood the point of the thread. As far as Islam itself goes, I don't know how we can fix the problem except extending olive branches and coaxing them further into the modern world. Supporting the moderate and liberal groups would probably be one good way to do this.