Hey, next time you see her, tell her the flock book is now set to music (its a good laugh anyway): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMfPyCcpZVY
Strike 3 for the elderette and me! (???) I never heard a JW talk SO much about Jesus!
by Faithful Witness 48 Replies latest watchtower bible
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blondie
FW, she is quite arrogant in saying she brought anybody in.
http://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/3-7.htm
1 Corinthians 3:5-7
American Standard Version (ASV)
5 What then is Apollos? and what is Paul? Ministers through whom ye believed; and each as the Lord gave to him.
6 I planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
7 So then neither is he that planteth anything, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
It Is “God Who Makes It Grow”!
“Neither is he that plants anything nor is he that waters, but God who makes it grow.”— 1 COR. 3:7 .
“ GOD’S fellow workers.” That is how the apostle Paul described the privilege all of us can enjoy. ( Read 1 Corinthians 3:5-9. ) The work to which Paul referred is the disciple-making work. He likened it to the sowing and watering of seed. If we are to be successful in that vital work, we need Jehovah’s help. Paul reminds us that it is “God who makes it grow.”
2 That humbling fact helps us to have a proper view of our ministry. We may work diligently at preaching and teaching, but ultimately all praise goes to Jehovah for any growth that might result. Why? Because try as we may, none of us can fully understand the growth process, let alone control it. King Solomon expressed the situation correctly when he wrote: “You do not know the work of the true God, who does all things.”— Eccl. 11:5 .
- The Watchtower (2008)
- w08 7/15 pp. 12-16
- It Is “God Who Makes It Grow”!
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punkofnice
Have you seen the movie 1984?
Yes...and read the book. 1984 is the WBT$ all over. There is even a Brother Rutherford in the story.
Ministry of truth. News-speak. Unperson. It's all there!
Viva la John Hurt!
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Faithful Witness
Blondie: I should be fair. I might have misrepresented how she talked about it. After she got flustered and sort of threw up her hands, about how she didn't really see why I would be worried about filling out time cards... There was actually a moment of silence, and that is when I asked her about it another way:
"How much fruit are you producing in the door-to-door preaching work? In 40+ years, how many people have you seen join the organization, as a result of the field ministry?"
She then started remembering and thinking out loud, about "Let's see... I studied with this lady, and that lady..." etc.
When I tried to give her credit for converting them to JW, she got defensive. "I didn't CONVERT anyone! They decided on their own, to follow the truth. I didn't decide for them." I would not describe her attitude or demeanor as prideful, when she was talking about those cases. I do think she was trying to give some credibility to the usefulness of the work they are forced to do, (I mean that they volunteer to do out of LOVE).
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leaving_quietly
So she kept pointing out how Jesus submits to the Father. Ok. Got it. So therefore... we submit to Jesus, and do what... ?? Follow his commands, beginning with his greatest commandment, love.
The thing with JWs is that they view "Jehovah" as the ultimate authority. Ok. That's fine. No issue there. But they also take the OT viewpoint of Jehovah "exacting exclusive devotion". Therein lies the big problem. When God exalted Jesus, this view changed. God made a covenant with Jesus and basically put Jesus in charge. He's the King. He's has "all authority in heaven and on earth." Does Jesus submit to the Father? Absolutely. But who are WE supposed to submit to?
Let's use an OT account and a NT passage to show this.
In the OT, Joseph became second in command of Egypt. Note what Pharaoh told Joseph. Genesis 19:39-44:
Phar′aoh then said to Joseph: “Since God has caused you to know all of this, there is no one as discreet and wise as you. You will personally be over my house, and all my people will obey you implicitly. Only in my role as king will I be greater than you.” And Phar′aoh added to Joseph: “See, I am putting you over all the land of Egypt.” Then Phar′aoh removed his signet ring from his own hand and put it on Joseph’s hand and clothed him with garments of fine linen and placed a necklace of gold around his neck. Moreover, he had him ride in the second chariot of honor that he had, and they would call out ahead of him, “A·vrékh!” Thus he put him over all the land of Egypt. Phar′aoh further said to Joseph: “I am Phar′aoh, but without your authorization, no man may do a single thing in all the land of Egypt.”
What do you think Pharaoh would do if people tried to do an end run around Joseph? Now, WTBTS likens Pharaoh to Jehovah and Joseph to Jesus, calling them "the Greater Pharaoh" and "the Greater Joseph" respectively. In all likelihood, Pharaoh would be quite annoyed if people tried to do an end run around Pharaoh. Don't you think Jehovah would be annoyed, too?
In the NT, there is a chain of command that is outlined. 1 Cor 3:21-23:
So let no one boast in men; for all things belong to you, whether Paul or A·pol′los or Ce′phas or the world or life or death or things now here or things to come, all things belong to you; in turn you belong to Christ; Christ, in turn, belongs to God.
So, it's pretty clearly outlined who belongs to whom here.
I'm reminded of the Star Trek episode where Picard gets captured by the Borg. Commander Shelby, this hot-shot commander, wants her idea to be heard by the captain. Command Riker doesn't like her idea, but assures her he will take it to the captain. As he walks into the captain's office, he finds Shelby sitting, already having talked to the captain about her idea. As they leave, Riker is pretty annoyed, and in the turbo-lift, he tells Shelby:
"You disagree with me, fine. You need to take it to the Captain, fine - through me. You do an end run around me again, I'll snap you back so hard you'll think you're a first-year cadet again."
Basically, this is how the arrangement between Christ and the Father is supposed to be.
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Chalam
"You are in the Truth."
Here's another thing JWs never understand. Jesus is the truth John 14:6. To be in "the truth" is to be in Jesus (and Jesus in you).
Romans 8:9-11
English Standard Version Anglicised (ESVUK)
9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.
The bible confers with around 100 references to being "in Christ" or Jesus but here's a good one to start with.
Romans 8:1-3
English Standard Version Anglicised (ESVUK)
8 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set youfree in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.
Ask a JW if they are "in Christ" and they likely won't have a clue what you are talking about!
The "learned" JW will claim this is only for the 144, 000.
However, according to Romans 8 they are in fact alive in their body but dead spiritually.
Stephen
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Faithful Witness
Chalam: Thank you. I like this train of thought. It seems to throw her off her game, when I ask a question that is not in the Reasoning book. She had a simiilar reaction, when I asked her the question, "What is the truth?" She said, "The Bible." She could not answer, when I asked, "What is the message of the Bible?"
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Chalam
They are blind guides in complete darkness.
The truth is not a thing, a doctrine or a thought process but rather a person.
John 14:6
English Standard Version Anglicised (ESVUK)
6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
John 8:31-32
English Standard Version Anglicised (ESVUK)
The Truth Will Set You Free
31 So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”
John 17:16-18
English Standard Version Anglicised (ESVUK)
16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth. 18 As you sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world.
1 John 2:3-5
English Standard Version Anglicised (ESVUK)
3 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, 5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him:
The Spirit of Jesus is the truth. JWs neither know Jesus or have His Spirit living within them.
John 16:13
English Standard Version Anglicised (ESVUK)
13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, butwhatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.
Neither can they approach the Father or even worship Him.
John 4:22-24
English Standard Version Anglicised (ESVUK)
22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. 24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”
Stephen