Escaping Indoctrination - Faith Isn't a Virtue.

by cofty 144 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  xchange

  mrhhome said: To re-iterate a point made in a previous thread, we worship the religion of science without understanding it.

  Unfortunately, statements such as the one above, affects the overall points (not in a good way) that she/he is trying to make when they conflate the words 'religion' and 'science' together. Science is not based on faith. Faith is one of those words with many utilities in the English language. However, when a theist uses the word faith, he/she is merely saying "I am pretending to know things I don't really know". - (Peter Boghossian). That is why faith is NOT a virtue. It is not something that should be privileged in our society. Especially, for those in places of authority.
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  Comatose

  I think the basic simple point of the OP has been lost because some were afraid it could be applied to their belief system.

  I think every person who has posted here would agree that our previous faith in the WT organization was wrong and led us to be indoctrinated into a damaging way of life. During that time in our life we told ourselves that faith was a virtue and that we HAD to maintain our faith.

  Just because we now we feel our faith is founded solidly doesn't mean that it is NOW a virtue.

  Its a simple and relevant point.
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  suavojr

  My waking up to TTATT was gradual and still held a belief in God and Jesus, etc… but then I asked myself the question, Is it really Jesus calling me out of the WT?

  The proof that I saw in front of me, was that I was the one using my own critical thinking and no outside entity was guiding me in a special way. When you slow down and think more carefully and your honest about the meaning of you are reading, critical thinking kicks in and out with the Faith!
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  abbasgreta

  Hi all, hope everyone is keeping fine and dandy. Alas, for this thread my fingers won't stay off the keys! Here is my contribution:-

  Faith (in and towards God) is one of the fruits of the Holy Spirit (from Pentecost - of Christ) who dwells in the born-again Christian. Faith is listed as one of the spiritual GIFTS given freely by God and is linked to a Christian's hope (described as the 'anchor' of faith'). Faith is therefore a treasured God-given POSSESSION, not a 'virtue' and is ..."not the possession of all". The Christian gradually 'morphs' into someone more virtuOUS as the fruit of the Spirit changes him making him more kind, gentle and gracious and most importantly, loving - it rules over his very being making him more and more Christ-like. Note: I am NOT saying that non-Christians aren't kind, gentle etc, I'm emphasising the immediate transforming effects of the Holy Spirit. In my case, a former jw 'people-of-the-world hater' began spontaneously hugging complete strangers. Contempt for people and condemnation of them was just literally blown away in a couple of days. Faith in the altogether new, true gospel of Christ was something I never had to work on to 'achieve', it was effortless and gifted to me. Faith on the earth is expressly mentioned by Jesus as what He hopes to 'really find' when he returns. Peace everyone.
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  Oubliette

  mrhhome: I just refuse to limit myself to the strict confines of science knowing its limitations in answering the really important questions in life.

  The scientific way of thinking and inquiry certainly does have limits. But that doesn't mean that we should worship the unknown and credit it with mysterious powers created by our imaginations fueled by ignorance.

  You may enjoy participating on an earlier thread I created on the subject of the philosophy of science. One of the points that has been discussed on that thread is the very point you bring up here, the limits of science.

  That being said, even a cursory consideration of the history of science reveals that yesterday's limits of knowledge have a frequent habit of becoming today's body of knowledge.

  To quote Arthur C. Clarke's Three Laws:

  1. When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong.
  2. The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible.
  3. Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
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  Oubliette

  Comatose: I think every person who has posted here would agree that our previous faith in the WT organization was wrong and led us to be indoctrinated into a damaging way of life. During that time in our life we told ourselves that faith was a virtue and that we HAD to maintain our faith.

  Yes, absolutely: I agree!
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  Pistoff

  MrHome:

  "Obviously, you have no experience in the practical mechanisms of how "science" really works. To re-iterate a point made in a previous thread, we worship the religion of science without understanding it."

  Well, I am not a scientist, and neither are you. (Why is science in quotes here, what are you disputing about science?)

  But if a climate change denier can prove their point against the mountain of evidence for, he will certainly be listened to. Right now, no credible scientist has made as strong a case against climate change as the case for climate change, never mind the reason.

  In the case of science, truth outs; can you say the same for religion?

  Science rewards the outliers; religion kills or emasculates outliers, Jesus being a case in point, until those calling themselves Christians became the majority, when they started killing their foes.

  That is the main difference between religion and science; science is constantly testing it's theories, whereas religion will hang on to unproveable ideas, damaging ideas and debunked world view for centuries and happily burn alive those who dissent, all in the name of the great almighty (as relayed by spiritually enlightened ones, like yourself maybe).

  For the record, I don't worship science, and I don't see that 'we' as a society do either.

  Scientists are assumed to be right until they are proven wrong, if they have the science to back it up; religionists, like you maybe, will take pride in unproveable and non-falsifiable assumptions until they die or, in a miraculous vision, some other spiritual luminary of theirs tells them differently.
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  Viviane

  Mr. Home, canyou provide an example of science working the way you describe? Right now it's just you saying it, an example would be quite helpful.
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  Apognophos

  mrhhome wrote:

  Consequently, there will always be some things that will remain a mystery. My faith is simply my solution to that mystery.

  As xchange wrote:

  However, when a theist uses the word faith, he/she is merely saying "I am pretending to know things I don't really know". - (Peter Boghossian).

  The crucial difference is that faith can mean "trust" (hopefully based on experience) or faith can mean "the inserting into our knowledge gaps of man-made information that sounds nice and can't currently be disproven". Do you see what the difference is, mrhhome?

  I know a lot of people with faith feel that they're not doing anyone any harm, so why can't they just be left to hold their own beliefs? Usually that may work out fine, but the issue is the vulnerability to charlatans and magical thinking that this produces, and how it can actually harm not just the believer, but others. Look not just at how JWs exploit peoples' pre-existing faith in the Bible and use converts to make more converts, but also at the people who flock to alternative medicine, who believe urban fright tales about vaccines and don't give them to their kids, etc.

  When a person exercises skepticism and critical thinking, they're hopefully doing so in all areas of life. By doing this, they are at the mercy of others who make grand claims. Skepticism is a great tool which is available in all of our brains, that every human should be using.
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  mrhhome

  Too many points to address and too little time. I am spending too much time on this thread.

  (1) I concur that blind unquestioning faith is not a virtue. Quite the opposite, it can be very bad. Unquestioning faith makes us vulnerable to cults etc.

  (2) I do not believe that "good" Christians are required not to ask questions. Quite the opposite, the great Christian thinkers through out history asked hard questions. I believe that asking questions of yourself and others is a critical part of maturing as a Christian.

  (3) While there may reach a point where endless circular questions can become disruptive, I would generally advise somebody to leave a church or any organization that discourages questions.

  (4) Actually, I am a scientist by both formal training and practice. The questions of uncertainty and risk are very practical technical and business issues that I confront daily.

  (5) My definition of faith is actually rather general. It is the belief in the unknown. That can range from specific to abstract. When I place my faith in friends and family, I accept that you can never be completely confident what is going on inside someone's head. As an example, I will probably understand the mysteries of God before I understand my wife. [Tongue in cheek.] When I place my faith in God, I am placing my faith in something that I will probably never understand and is sufficiently abstract that it is difficult to test hypothesis in a meaningful fashion.

  (6) Why do I believe? Based on my personal experience, it works in my life.

  (7) Having said that, I am a member of denomination (Methodist) that allows and even encourages questions. If they did not, my faith would have suffered. If someone told me that it was wrong to ask questions, it would have raised a big red flag.

  (8) Examples of the practical and theorectical limitations of science. That could fill a book. Reasonable question. No time.