one reason for the dumbing down of the org (page 5)

Vidiot

Magnum - "...he was saying that the org now veers away from deeper Bible teachings and analysis because they know if they do, there's less chance they can be found to be wrong."

Yeah, probably.

Pussies.

done4good

Old Goat - Oh, I think there are Witnesses with "brain power." They live in fear of using it. They compartmentalize. It's okay for them to use it when they teach or as a lawyer or engineer. It's not okay to develop a thological interest or to question the Watchtower's conclusions.

That comment is spot on. That was me, in my later years as a JW before leaving.

I had a similar conversation with a JW friend recently. I attempted to use the same reasonsing to help her understand cognitive dissonance. She experienced CD over the explanation of CD. And yes, she is an otherwise intelligent woman.

I believe this dumbing down is what will contribute to the organization's, (eventual), demise. What WT does not understand, is the dynamic that is playing out. It used to be, (at least through the 80's - early '90's), that JWs were encouraged to engage householders in discussion, and were able to do so quite well on many topics, however shortsighted they may have been in reality. There was passion, and a true belief that we were helping others understand things their religions were supposedly not teaching them. Not any more. JWs are no longer interested in the work. No passion, no desire...nothing to desire.

Secondly, the dumbing down will eventually cause those, like my friend above, to wake up. Intelligent people are generally successful. Successful people do not like being manipulated or controlled. The organization is replacing "richer", albeit false material, with control and manipulation. This is a recipe for long term disaster. It is a positive feedback loop that will not reverse itself. At some point, life happens. With no desire, no passion, and enough intelligence to know better, a big enough emotional tug in the other direction is all it takes to drive someone out. It happend to me, and a good number of us here the same way. The best and the brightest figure it out eventually.

d4g

Apognophos

Although I hesitate to use words like "intelligent" and "successful" because I think they're slippery and potentially divisive, I tend to agree that the most ambitious people tend to leave the religion. I think when someone has the ability to thrive in "this world" or has a lot of creative potential, they naturally sense it within themselves and want to use their abilities. This also means that they don't feel such a strong need for the warm cradle of the religion.

Whereas I've known some very intelligent people in the religion who had zero ambition, and decades on, guess what? They're still there. They won't allow themselves to examine their beliefs because they don't know what they would do without the religion. Whereas the ones who are having mid-life crises at 30 are the ones who think to themselves, "What wouldn't I do without the religion? Man, I'd be making movies, I'd be starting a business, I'd be marketing this invention, etc. etc." They're an inch away from deciding to find a reason to leave the org.

Magnum

done4good: I believe this dumbing down is what will contribute to the organization's, (eventual), demise. What WT does not understand, is the dynamic that is playing out. It used to be, (at least through the 80's - early '90's), that JWs were encouraged to engage householders in discussion, and were able to do so quite well on many topics, however shortsighted they may have been in reality. There was passion, and a true belief that we were helping others understand things their religions were supposedly not teaching them. Not any more. JWs are no longer interested in the work. No passion, no desire...nothing to desire.

Secondly, the dumbing down will eventually cause those, like my friend above, to wake up. Intelligent people are generally successful. Successful people do not like being manipulated or controlled. The organization is replacing "richer", albeit false material, with control and manipulation. This is a recipe for long term disaster. It is a positive feedback loop that will not reverse itself. At some point, life happens. With no desire, no passion, and enough intelligence to know better, a big enough emotional tug in the other direction is all it takes to drive someone out. It happend to me, and a good number of us here the same way. The best and the brightest figure it out eventually.

I agree.

This part,

It used to be, (at least through the 80's - early '90's), that JWs were encouraged to engage householders in discussion, and were able to do so quite well on many topics, however shortsighted they may have been in reality. There was passion, and a true belief that we were helping others understand things their religions were supposedly not teaching them. Not any more. JWs are no longer interested in the work. No passion, no desire...nothing to desire.

I especially agree with. It's so different now. I remember when I had a passion in the ministry engaging householders, but no more. Damn, JWdom is different now. What if I did find an intelligent interested person? Am I going to enthusiastically encourage him to attend our meetings where he's going to be stimulated and educated and encouraged? I'd be embarassed to take him to a meeting.

Magnum

Billy the Ex-Bethelite: The Daniel book was fairly well received, but there was a lot of disappointment that no predictions for the future were made for things like King of the North. It was more of a historical review rather than something motivating. And for the two Isaiah books, there were a lot of complaints from publishers and book study conductors. These things were so painfully slow, boring, and repetitious that I know our congregation saw new lows in attendance for CBS.

I agree with you about the Daniel book. Also, I'm glad to hear you sort of confirm what I thought about the Isaiah books. Even though I agree with donuthole that they were the last of the books that had that feel of deeper analysis, they were painfully slow, boring, and repetitious as you said. It seemed that every other paragraph referred to the 537 B.C.E. restoration of true worship and applied it to 1919 C.E.

steve2

Intelligence is like one's libido: If you don't use it, you lose it. There are very likely plenty of intelligent individuals in the organization who - for their own reasons - are selectively "lazy" in their neglect of reasoning.

hybridous

Quote: 'There are very likely plenty of intelligent individuals in the organization who - for their own reasons - are selectively "lazy" in their neglect of reasoning.'

Good comment. What they're not accounting for is the fact that such selective 'laziness' carries its own weighty and formidable burden. And even if they percieve it, the hope is that the Kingdom arrives before they give out. Such an insufferable prison...

DATA-DOG

Many of the deeper things seemed deep because they were unintelligible discombobulated bull S***!! The belief that an oracle with god given powers of prognostication had profound predictions, predicated the penitent to ponder the profundity of the prognosticator's premise!! Holy headaches, Batman!!

All that is left is the diabolical deductions of dumb-dumbs in deep doo-doo...

DD

Magnum

DATA-DOG: Many of the deeper things seemed deep because they were unintelligible discombobulated bull S***!! The belief that an oracle with god given powers of prognostication had profound predictions, predicated the penitent to ponder the profundity of the prognosticator's premise!!

I agree. That's why I said what's shown below in an earlier post on this thread.

It reminds me of an episode of the Beverly Hillbillies I once saw. Ellie-Mae and Jethro got sucked into a commune of hippies, and eventually Granny joined. In this commune was some skinny, shaggy-looking little hippie punk that basically just slept on a cot all day. Every once in a while he would wake up, raise his head up, and say something mundane like "I need to go to the bathroom". All the hippies would then excitedly try to figure out the "deep" meaning of his words, as if they were profound. He was their guru, and whatever he said was unchallenged, accepted, revered even though he was just a skinny little punk who basically slept all day.

That, to me, is the way it was with Freddy. He was nothing special, but he was the JW guru, and whatever he said must have been profound and deep. JWs waited eagerly for the next words to come from his mouth or his pen. However, he was just a social misfit with decent intelligence and education, and he was perhaps delusional.

Ding

The WTS is down to one simple message -- obey the GB or be annihilated.

one reason for the dumbing down of the org

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