Dissoi logoi - Jehovah's Witnesses do have the Truth! My Story Part 3

objectivetruth

I stopped Attending Meetings over One Year Ago, and I have Thoroughly made it Clear to all Friends & Family that I am opposed to the Teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses, and I cannot support a Religion that teaches Lies.

I have Systematically examined each Teaching & Practice of the Jehovah's Witnesses. Concluding that Many are not Scriptural or Logical.

After a Year I have Very Unexpectedly arrived at another Conclusion. The Jehovah's Witnesses do have the truth. The truth that is found in the Bible.

Dissoi Logoi (literally, "contrasting arguments" in Greek) is a rhetorical exercise of unknown authorship, and date. It is intended to help an individual gain a deeper understanding of an issue by forcing him or her to consider it from the angle of his opponent, which may serve either to strengthen his or her argument or to help the debaters reach compromise.

If I were so Inclined, I could sit down with my Former Self, or any other Ex-JW and provide Proof, that the Jehovah's Witnesses do have the truth. Or in reversal I could prove to a Witness that the Jehovah's Witnesses do not have the Truth.

The beneficial result has been that I now do not feel "Disgust" for the Teachings or Practices of Jehovah's Witnesses, and I can now communicate with my JW parents and JW friends (That have not shunned me) without the Desire to "Prove" them, that they are wrong.

I'm left with some questions, that are a bit more Difficult to answer for my self.

If there is No Absolute Truth, in Religous beliefs.. is Manipulation of relative truth acceptable?
Is the concept of Utilitarianism Good or Evil?
Does the Jehovah's Witness religion cause more Pain or Happiness Overall in the Life of it's Members.

objectivetruth

BTW - If you would like to provide a few Arguments that prove that JW's do not teach the Truth as Found in the Bible, I will provide a simple contrary Argument .

leaving_quietly

I, too, have been very objective in this journey. Nothing anyone says is taken at face value. I started my research with the premise that JWs DO have the truth. But, my research has shown otherwise. How is it that two presumably intelligent people have done "objective" research and came to very different conclusions?

My conclusion: JWs have SOME truth. But with very core things they do not have THE truth. The core parts of the JW theology have to do with 1914, the 144,000 vs. great crowd, and heaven vs. paradise earth. Everything else is fluff. If these three doctrines are true, then I would bite.

Tell us, how did you come to the conclusion that 1914 is true? I came to a very different conclusion, and the house of cards came tumbling down.

jgnat

Question: How many talents, careers, abilities are people graced with, and how many of those can be fully expressed without a college education and restricted to the roles in the Kingdom Hall?

Heck, make it simple. Consider the roles offered women. Would Maggie Thatcher reached her full potential as a Witness?

cofty

Would Maggie Thatcher reached her full potential as a Witness?

The most compelling case for misogyny I have ever heard.

leaving_quietly

Let's get real specific about 1914. JWs teach that Daniel's tree dream in Daniel 4 has, not one, but two fulfillments. They say this using the phrase, "it is not logical to think" that this doesn't have more than one fulfillment because so many of the other visions in Daniel do have a future fulfillment.

Right off the bat, JWs use speculation to support their teaching.

Then, they arbitrarily link this vision to Jesus' words at Luke 21:24 based on the word "times" and that word alone. Following that link, they say that Jesus was talking about the times from the destruction of Jerusalem in 607 B.C.E. (which date is in dispute, but that's not my argument). However, the Greek word for "will be" in the phrase "Jerusalem will be trodden down" is in the FUTURE tense, not the past tense, so Jesus could not have been speaking about an event that occurred some 600 years in his past when he spoke those words.

So, second major flaw in this argument: cherry-picking scriptures to fit an idea

607 B.C.E is a third major flaw in that JWs do not accept what the vast majority of scholars, theologians and archeaologists date the destruction of Jerusalem at. However, getting to 607 in the first place is problematic because of the future tense of the phrase "will be", so that's more of a wild goose chase.

Fourth: JWs didn't start teaching 1914 as the start of Christ's presence until 1943. Prior to then, they taught 1874. Did they have the truth before 1943? Or is it just AFTER 1943 that they started having the truth?

objectivetruth

Leaving_quietly - I'll first respond to this question " How is it that two presumably intelligent people have done "objective" research and came to very different conclusions?" - You and I Have not come to Different Conclusions. We both Personally know that Many of the teachings are false.. The Conclusion that I have come to is, there is Biblical Support for each Witness Teaching & Practice.

I'l express a few arguments from the Witness Point of View Regarding 1914.

1. For Every 50 Dates that point to a date other than 607 BCE there are 2 Secular, non Jehovah's Witnesses Sources that point to it.

2. Jesus Apostles continued to be wrong on several things, and Jesus never corrected them.. Example Acts 1:6 , they were expecting the Kingdom to be restored to Israel at that very Time.

3. With in "Gods Organizations" there have always been Errors & Innacurate Prophesies. - Deuteronomy 18:22 "when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him." This scripture is spoken to Gods Chosen people, The Nation of Israel, which proves there were False Prophets amongst the Israelites, the same as there have been among The Organization. The Scripture does not say "The Israelites will no longer be gods chosen people, it says do not be afraid of him The False Prophet (Individually).

Crazyguy

Jw's don't have the truth period, they lie and lie somemore. I can blow up most of the teachings using just one book the bible!

objectivetruth

Crazyguy - That is where the Issue lies, any teaching can be Proven with the Bible.

The Trinity is True - There are several scriptures that "Prove" that the trinity is True.

The Trinity is False - There are several scriptures that Prove that the Trinity is False.

HellFire - Same Thing.

Virgin Birth - Same Thing.

Death of Christ - Same thing.

Pretty Much Any Theological Teaching Can Be Proven & Disproven using the Bible..

I believe what I Believe, but Who am I to Judge some one on what they Believe?

leaving_quietly

1. For Every 50 Dates that point to a date other than 607 BCE there are 2 Secular, non Jehovah's Witnesses Sources that point to it.

I see you tackled the one argument that I said was a wild goose chase. 607 is only a problem because JWs make a big deal of it when, in fact, it shouldn't even be part of the argument based on the future tense of Jesus' words, which ALSO shouldn't be part of the argument because it's a cherry-picked link between the "seven times" in Daniel 4 and "times" in Luke 21:24. This is a non-argument. The whole 1914 thing is a fabricated prophecy.

2. Jesus Apostles continued to be wrong on several things, and Jesus never corrected them.. Example Acts 1:6 , they were expecting the Kingdom to be restored to Israel at that very Time.

Of course he corrected them. At Acts 1:7, he said "It does not belong to you to know the times or seasons that the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction." How is that not a correction?

3. With in "Gods Organizations" there have always been Errors & Innacurate Prophesies. - Deuteronomy 18:22 "when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him." This scripture is spoken to Gods Chosen people, The Nation of Israel, which proves there were False Prophets amongst the Israelites, the same as there have been among The Organization. The Scripture does not say "The Israelites will no longer be gods chosen people, it says do not be afraid of him The False Prophet (Individually).

I'll hold back a little on this one. But, two things:

1. The new covenant is that God would teach people himself. Jer 31:33,34 is that new covenant: "“For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares Jehovah. “I will put my law within them, and in their heart I will write it. And I will become their God, and they will become my people.”" If God is writing his law within people's hearts, how would it be possible to write errors and inaccuracies? And they will no longer teach each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know Jehovah!’ for they will all know me, from the least to the greatest of them,” declares Jehovah. “For I will forgive their error, and I will no longer remember their sin."

2. If any organization claims to have the truth, then that "truth" changes, and people are expelled, excommunicated, disfellowshipped for not believing their current version of truth, then how could that organization possibly be God's organization? This goes back to your first argument that Jesus never corrected the apostles. If that is true, then why would the organization dare to correct or throw out people who don't believe what comes from the organization as "truth"? Is the organization greater than Jesus?

*** edited to add Jer. 31:34 also ***

Dissoi logoi - Jehovah's Witnesses do have the Truth! My Story Part 3

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