The Truth About The Truth goes way way way back before Watchtower?

by Island Man 15 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Island Man

  Here's an interesting excerpt from Forged by Bart Ehrman (pay particular attention to the last sentence):

  "A number of the books of the New Testament were disputed already in early Christianity, among the Christian scholars of the second to the fourth centuries, who were arguing over which books should be included in Scripture.

  The most famous instance is the book of Revelation. A third-century Christian scholar of Alexandria, Egypt, named Dionysius, argued that the book was not actually written by Jesus’s disciple John, the son of Zebedee. Dionysius’s argument was compelling and continues to be compelling to scholars today. He maintained that the writing style of the book is so different from that of the Gospel of John that they could not have been written by the same person (modern scholars differ from Dionysius only in thinking that the Gospel too was probably not written by John). Dionysius thought there must have been two authors of the same name who later came to be confused as the same person. But it is interesting that Dionysius, according to the church father Eusebius, had a number of predecessors who had argued that Revelation was written not by a different man named John, but by a heretic named Cerinthus, who forged the account in order to promote his false teaching that there would be a literal future paradise of a thousand years here on earth."
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  Band on the Run

  Elaine Pagels wrote a book about Revelation this past year. I wrote a short review. St. Athanasius used Revelation to fight against the Christian father mystics in the Egyptian desert. Most Church fathers found it embarassing. Pagels writes that Revelation was a completely failed prophecy. Rome is seen as the destroyer of virtuouss Christians. Not too long after Revelation was written, Constantine converted. Rome n ow sheltered Christians. Most of the bishops had spent many years in hard exile. Now they lived as princes in palaces. Revelation would have been forgotten but for Athansius of Athansius Creed. He needed it to crush St. Anthony. Rome was no longer the enemy. Christians who did not obey their bishops in all detail became evil. Oh, how I wish the Fathers had crushed Revelation.
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  Apognophos

  All I know is, the Bible would sure have a much less interesting ending if Revelation weren't there!

  Actually, that last sentence is odd to me because I thought that it was the Society's own idea that the paradise in Revelation was earthly. I thought the author intended it to be in heaven. So now I'm confused.
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  opusdei1972

  Interestingly, the Muratorian Canon of the second century omitted the book of Revelation. On the other hand we have this verse:

  The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction. (Rev 17:8)

  If the above is a reference of the legend of Nero redivivus it would mean that this book is not inspired.
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  opusdei1972

  Apognophos The fact is that in Rev. 7:15 the great crowd is seen in the sanctuary of the temple (greek naos), which is in heaven (Rev. 11:19). So, the Society is making a big mistake by telling to the Witnesses that most of them belong to the great crowd who will be in an earthly paradise.
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  steve2

  But I want to see the lion lay down with the little lamb.
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  Phizzy

  Martin Luther had his doubts about Revelation too, if I remember correctly.

  Apparently the Greek of the Gospel of John (more than likely not written by the Apostle John either !) is that of an educated man, whereas the Greek of Revelation is very crude and uneducated, a bit as though it were written by a country Hick, perhaps the full name of the John of Revelation was Johnny Hayseed.

  I think Ehrmann is being a bit strong with the word "Forged" as writng under a name that gave a work more seeming authority was a common techniquefor centuries before Revelation was penned.

  However, from the point of view of the "Bible is inspired " group, such pseudapigraphal works do pose a problem, as with many of the Letters ascribed to Paul , did God inspire these men to deceive, in effect to lie ?
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  EdenOne

  marked
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  exWTslave

  Very interesting!
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  Vidiot

  "He maintained that the writing style of the book is so different from that of the Gospel of John that they could not have been written by the same person (modern scholars differ from Dionysius only in thinking that the Gospel too was probably not written by John)."

  That gave me a chuckle.

  Apognophos - "Actually, that last sentence is odd to me because I thought that it was the Society's own idea that the paradise in Revelation was earthly. I thought the author intended it to be in heaven."

  Oh, no.

  The Millennial-Paradise-on-Earth concept was no more unique to the WTS than any other WT doctrine.

  Cribbing has been a long-standing tactic, going as far back as Russel himself.

  steve2 - "But I want to see the lion lay down with the little lamb. "

  Freak.