MH 17

zeb

Today is a day of National mourning for those murdered on flight MH 17.

There is a page you might look at to get another perspective on this.

Anderweltonline.com

This guy is a German pilot of large experience. From what he says it was not a missile.

Peace.

metatron

It is an argument from silence but I wonder where are the recordings of traffic controllers in Ukraine? Why haven't they been made public? Were fighter jets following MH17 as Russia claims?

Something about this incident doesn't add up.

metatron

LoisLane looking for Superman

There are English letters, but not English Words.

When there is a translation box, I do know how to click it for my language, but I do not see that here.

Am I missing something here?

LL

Reading the story of the pilot, it appears he argues that the holes seen only in the front of the plane entering and exiting the skin are from the guns of a fighter plane. that is questionable because

previous coverage has explained that the missiles used, once fired, climb against the approaching target, radar guided and explode before impact triggered by a proximity fuse. the warhead is made up of shrapnels that explode out, creating a cloud of "bullets" like a shot gun blast, into which the plan flies.

The plane was coming from the west, direction kiev and would have looked like an Ukrainian plane to the rebels in the east, they shooting toward the west, toward the nose of the plane that was punctured.

Typically a fighter plane would have intercepted a plane from behind. damaged the rear, the engines.

The rebels have no airforce, why would a Ukrainian pilot think a rebel plane would come from the west?, then fly back east to the russian border and attack the plane westward from the front at a closing speed of 2000 mph?

There are good pilots and bad analists he combines them in one person.

scotoma

If you are interested in a detailed analysis of the mh-17 incident check this out:

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0ByibNV3SiUoobnpCVDduaHVORHM/edit?pli=1

That link is quite technical.

At the very least the USA should make their photo evidence available. But they refuse. Which means it probably shows that the Ukraine government brought down the plane.

Suppose the separatists did shoot down the plane. It certainly wasn't intentional. They would not win many points if they did it intentionally.

Why did Ukraine allow commercial planes fly over a war zone?

Right now Obama is trying to save face as a "tough" president. He is exploiting this dangerous situation in the face of mid term elections where republicans are going to ridicule Obama for not standing up to Russia like Republican Mitt Romney would have.

Putin is absolutely not going to give Crimea back to Ukraine unless Ukraine joins Putin's Eurasian union.

prologos

The Ukraine probably was not allowing planes to fly over its territory to shoot them down.

whoever shot it down was shooting down other planes too.

whoever shot it down knew the other side had planes. The Ukraine knew the rebels did not have planes that they needed to shoot down.

If the rebels knew the ukrainians shot down the plane they would have opened up the crash site immediately to the world*and would not have tampered with the evidence, cutting away with saws, lifting stuff with cranes .*

the scotoma link is detailed, a refutation mainly of the telegraph story, that may or not be accurate in location, as a technical report is is marred by the rhetoric at the end.

MH 17? a tragedy caused by power struggles and incompetence.

when will they ever learn?

Bart Belteshassur

I will start by confessing that I only got as pages 4 or 5 of this article, until I realised that the writer had very little knowledge of aviation navigation, squark info, or airways proceedures. He makes errors in not clarifying if the speed he refers to is true airspeed, indicated, corrected, or ground speed. He also refers to an altitude of 33,000 ft, MH17 would have been at flight level 33, and in order to determine the true altitude you need to know the barimetric pressure at the appropriate position. It must be assumed that the 490 Knots is if fact ground speed, but if had specified this any one who is familiar with airline would know that there must have been a considerable nose wind acting against the heading MH17 was following, if it was true airspeed the aircraft wouuld have dropped like a brick without the help of a missile.

If his details of the debris field are accurate it is easy to determine that there was an average 27.5 Knot northerly componate on average during the free fall of the bodies and the larger more air resistant sections of the aircraft, to the wind direct. He fails to point out that the weight or mass of an object has no relationship with it terminal velocity in free fall, and implies the reverse in the description of the spred, direction of the debris.

This report does not help in determining the true circumstances which lead to this terrible incident, and it is best to await the detailed results of what ever the investigators and their determinations conclude.

BB

scotoma

Bart,

You are absolutely correct; "i t is best to await the detailed results of what ever the investigators and their determinations conclude."

It is clear the policy makers in the US State Department aren't willing to wait for an accurate determination. They are anxious to force Europeans into a cold war which will ultimately affect their economy and save Obama's face after Putin pulled him out of an embarrassing premature "red-line" in Syria.

Notice that lots of commercial airlines have been accidentally shot down by the USA, Russia, Israel etc. The consequences did not result in any significant pressure.

At the same time you will notice that the US doesn't produce its information that is supposed to support its claims. In fact Obama had to quickly say it had no proof that Russia or Rebels were responsible. If he would have insisted on that stance he would have to share the evidence the USA has and that evidence at the very least might incriminate the Ukranian forces perhaps a Rogue Nazi group financed by one of the crazy oligarchs in Ukraine.

Still, the American Press keeps whipping up anger by repeating the false accusations started by John Kerry and Obama.

Here is an article by a very reputable reporter - Robert Perry

http://consortiumnews.com/2014/08/03/flight-17-shoot-down-scenario-shifts/

While the USA can use air strikes to prevent a humanitarian disaster in Iraq where ISIS is attacking christians Russia has its hands tied in preventing the killing of civilians and systematic destruction of major cities in Eastern Ukraine. Actually the USA and NATO are encouraging Ukraine to get the job done even though they know there are war crimes being committed by using huge bombs in civilian areas.

It looks like the drum-beat of war can't be stopped.

prologos

bart, why would an airliner drop like a brick at 490 + knots true airspeed? what is the stall speed of that plane, flaps up, not maneuvering at 33 000 feet? 300 knots?

you said: "--weight has no relationship to terminal velocity in free fall--"? really? is it not the weight to drag ratio?

flawed refutation for a flawed report?

The boy from moscow (admitted, now resigned) had been given too big a toy.

Bart Belteshassur

Scotoma - I to have been somewhat amazed at the lack of evidence that the Russians and US have. It should be obvious that neither of want to release anthing of importance. I noted that Russia produced a radar image that showed a single unidentifiable aircraft in the area at the time but this took some time to come to light. I wonder why?

My intial thought was that it had been created to incriminate the Ukrainian Gov, but as the US will have been monitoring the air with airbourne radar and ground monitoring statilites but why haven't they released the info?

I will let you draw your own conclusions, but I don't think that either the Ukrainian Gov or the Pro Russian Rebels had anything to do with it, and the longer it takes to get the investigation really underway, the longer they have to remove any incriminating evidence at the scene, and both of prevent the investigation by instructing their various protagonist on the ground.

It will be a long time before we half the story, and someone can agree who will be scapegoat. Prehaps they could blame ISIS ???

BB

MH 17

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