Atheists and JWs are on the same footing! (page 3)

defender of truth

"If evil and suffering exist, it proves man has chosen evil and its resultant suffering!"
ExWTSlave... Animals did not choose to suffer.
Why did God design animals to suffer and kill each other in painful ways, long before 'mankinds fall' ??

http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/222352/1/Theists-why-does-God-allow-suffering#.U-jYul2t-o8

AndDontCallMeShirley

cofty: It's just that some of us have the courage an intellectual honesty to face up to the evidence

You'll have to explain "intellectual honesty" to CurrentWTslave...he's probably never heard that term before.

CurrentWTslave: "If evil and suffering exist, it proves man has chosen evil and its resultant suffering!"

"Yes, we choose to starve."

KateWild

It does prove beyond all reasonable doubt that the god of christian theism, the god and father of Jesus christ, does not exist.-cofty

JWs and many theists would answer it just proves that the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one Satan. 1John 5:19. IMO this is also total nonesense, humans don't need to see how suffering works in order to worship a benevolent God, total rubbish.

But natural disasters do not prove that God does not exist, just because there is suffering in the world it does not ditract form the premise there is an intelligent creator, who is likely indifferent to human suffering.

Kate xx

cofty

OK so natural evil could be consistent with a malevolent deity.

So how do you account for beauty & pleasure?

MadGiant

"If evil and suffering exist, it only shows evil and suffering exist--that's all, it will not prove God does not exist." - Ex
"If evil and suffering exist, it proves man has chosen evil and its resultant suffering! He is not in the habit of learning from experience--his or of others. Otherwise things such as anger and alcohol .... would have long disappeared from the surface of the earth. Because things such as them prove more mischievous than the things one is angry about, or grapples with." - Ex

Sorry, my friend, but this is not an argument, it doesn't establish that god exist either. Applying this argument to actual examples of evil results in really bizarre statements. If someone murders a man's wife, you would tell him that his wife did not experience evil, she just experienced a temporary lack of (what?), while the killer was stabbing her with a knife. Nevertheless, the man still experiences suffering and his wife is dead, regardless of how you describe this event (god, no god, evil, no evil). If real, an omnibenevolentt dog would not absent himself/herself in ways that cause or allow suffering.

One doesn't even need examples to show the oddity. Applying this line at a conceptual level is sufficient. If evil is the relative lack of god's inclusion in a situation, then what is the baseline? How much light do we need to see? How much heat do we need to feel warm? How much Dog do we need to be good?

You are avoiding facing the fact that the point we are arguing requires a completely unknown mechanism (paranormal powers, Goddidit, Aliensdidit, etc) to work properly.

And your logical fallacy is...
strawman
You misrepresented someone's argument to make it easier to attack.
By exaggerating, misrepresenting, or just completely fabricating someone's argument, it's much easier to present your own position as being reasonable, but this kind of dishonesty serves to undermine honest rational debate.

And your logical fallacy is...
composition/division
You assumed that one part of something has to be applied to all, or other, parts of it; or that the whole must apply to its parts.
Often when something is true for the part it does also apply to the whole, or vice versa, but the crucial difference is whether there exists good evidence to show that this is the case. Because we observe consistencies in things, our thinking can become biased so that we presume consistency to exist where it does not.

Also...
middle ground
You claimed that a compromise, or middle point, between two extremes must be the truth.
Much of the time the truth does indeed lie between two extreme points, but this can bias our thinking: sometimes a thing is simply untrue and a compromise of it is also untrue. Half way between truth and a lie, is still a lie.

Ismael

KateWild

So how do you account for beauty & pleasure?- cofty

The universe is mathematically perfect but it looks pleasureable and beautiful too, it also is dangerous to life forms in some ways.

Good point, the way I see it is in guided processes and evolution. God as the creator is the spark, beauty and pleasure are the result of guided processes, suffering and deformaties are a result of evolution left to it's own devices in unguided formations of nature. Similar to wear and tear of manmade objects. Eventually there will be a flaw in the process.

Beauty and pleasure are also in the eye of the beholder, not everyone see's beauty and pleasure the same. It boils down to taste. Likes and dislikes.

This is all my own philosophy of beauty and pleasure, nothing factual.

Kate xx

cofty

Beauty and pleasure are also in the eye of the beholder, not everyone see's beauty and pleasure the same. It boils down to taste. Likes and dislikes.

Food and drink, warmth, shelter, the love of a parent, the encouragement of friends; these things are universally good and contribute to human flourishing.

Pain, hunger, thirst, extreme cold, isolation, abandonment; these things are universally bad and harmful to human flourishing.

These things have nothing to do with likes and dislikes.

If your god is evil, why is there so much good in the world?

If your god is good why the suffering?

Theredeemer

I wish, for once, theists would stop telling me what I believe, what I dont believe, why I think the way I do and so on. I didnt choose to be atheist. Only after carefully analyzing and critically going over everything thing I believe along with all the information I have at my disposal, I had no options left but to abandon the belief in a Supreme Being. I didnt choose this as much as theists didnt choose to cease believing in Santa Clause or the tooth fairy.

Imagine if you met an adult who fervently believed in the Tooth Fairy and then judged you for not having the same faith as them. Imagine if they presumptuously argued that "the reason you dont believe is because you never lost a tooth!" or "the reason you dont believe is because you never got money when you lost a tooth" or " You dont believe because you have no teeth!"

In the end there is no point in even explaining, discussing or arguing with this person. Why? BECAUSE HE FREAKIN BELIEVES IN THE TOOTH FAIRY!

MadGiant

"Good point, the way I see it is in guided processes and evolution. God as the creator is the spark, beauty and pleasure are the result of guided processes, suffering and deformaties are a result of evolution left to it's own devices in unguided formations of nature. Similar to wear and tear of manmade objects. Eventually there will be a flaw in the process." - Kate

This is a contradiction. This argument just make god, any god completely redundant.

Ismael

cofty

Kate you are an atheist - you just haven't realised it yet.

Atheists and JWs are on the same footing!

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