This week's Book study :the chicken or egg debate

by raymond frantz 12 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • raymond frantz
    raymond frantz

    This week's Book study has this to say on paragraph 11:

    11 All humans are by inheritance sinful and thus deserving of sin’s penalty—death. (Romans 5:12) But Jehovah finds no pleasure in the death of sinners. He is “a God of acts of forgiveness, gracious and merciful.” (Nehemiah 9:17) Still, because he is holy, he cannot condone unrighteousness. How, then, could he show mercy to inherently sinful humans? The answer is found in one of the most precious truths of God’s Word: Jehovah’s provision of a ransom for mankind’s salvation. In Chapter 14 we will learn more about this loving arrangement. It is at once profoundly just and supremely merciful. By means of it, Jehovah can express tender mercy toward repentant sinners while maintaining his standards of perfect justice.—Romans 3:21-26.

    "Jehovah's most wonderful provision for mankind's salvation is the ransom sacrifice " the paragraph says ,BUT when you read Romans 3:24 that is quoted in the paragraph it says the following :"24 and it is as a free gift+ that they are being declared righteous by his undeserved kindness+ through the release by the ransom paid by Christ Jesus"

    The free gift is : the undeserved kindness (=grace) which was made manifest or set in operation with the ransom sacrifice.

    So the question is this : What came first Grace or the Ransom ? What is more important Jehovah's plan for man's salvation (=Grace) or the actual act that made it possible (=Ransom)?

    Charisma a way to understand “Undeserved Kindness” (link to an article about undeserved kindness)

  • Separation of Powers
    Separation of Powers

    Witnesses don't believe in "grace." It is a foreign concept to them. It is not Undeserved Kindness as the ORG describes it. So, I don't really know how to address your question.

  • raymond frantz
    raymond frantz

    it was foreign to me until I actually read romans 3:24 on biblehub and how 99% of other translations render the phrase "undeserved kindness" as grace .

    The word fro grace in the original text is "charis" No Greek whether modern or ancient will describe "charis" as undeserved kindness .This phrase removes the idea of a free gift

  • cofty
    cofty

    All humans are by inheritance sinful and thus deserving of sin’s penalty—death.

    What a horrible, dehumanising concept that all JWs and christians have in common.

    To teach a child that they were born deserving of death is abuse.

  • NAVYTOWN
    NAVYTOWN

    The whole concept of all humans being 'sinners deserving of death' and requiring a 'ransom sacrifice' to 'save' then makes absolutely no sense. What a pessimistic outlook on life. I think most educated people now reject that whole worn-out story. It's much more enlightened to view humans as basically good than to think that everyone is a 'born sinner' deserving of death. It's no wonder that many people are turning away from Christianity nowadays. Believing anything in the Bible is a big mistake. Optimism is far more appealing.

  • raymond frantz
    raymond frantz

    navytown I needed some clarification on this verse not a diversion .I'm a believer not interested in a debate about faith in God or validity of Christian concepts

  • Oubliette
    Oubliette

    Cofty: To teach a child that they were born deserving of death is abuse.

    You have a gift for understatement.

  • cofty
  • raymond frantz
    raymond frantz

    thanks for the post cofty I'll have a read

  • defender of truth
    defender of truth

    Cofty said:
    "What a horrible, dehumanising concept that all JWs and christians have in common.
    To teach a child that they were born deserving of death is abuse."
    You may like this video, especially from 8:00 where they mention your point..

    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0vYKZe_Svno&fulldescription=1&client=mv-google&gl=US&hl=en

    ...
    Navytown said:
    "The whole concept of all humans being 'sinners deserving of death' and requiring a 'ransom sacrifice' to 'save' them makes absolutely no sense."
    And here's one for you, I recommend watching it from 10:00 onwards..
    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-et3fiHZiiI&itct=CCMQpDAYCCITCJu3je3pk8ACFYhBywodRaIAWVIjYXRoZWlzdCBleHBlcmllbmNlIHJhbnNvbSBzYWNyaWZpY2U%3D&client=mv-google&hl=en&gl=US

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