Perry seriously.......those attempts to explain or reason what was written only made me more angry.
It basically says its not quite exactly as bad as it seems.
Jehovah told to Moses: "....kill every woman who has had sexual relations with a man"
by opusdei1972 70 Replies latest watchtower bible
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millie210
A big thank you to Perry.
It wasnt easy to stand for what you have and offering an explanation.
I am not saying I agree with what this scripture is stating. I do however, want to understand it in the context of its time.
Its very easy once we are upset with a person or a thing (like I am with the JW leadership) to just poke and criticize everything to the highest degree possible.
I am trying to fight that tendency in myself.
Ok, I indulge it once in a while but I AM trying to find my way out of this religion with objectivity.
Reading threads like this one makes me uncertain about the objectivity level of some posters.
I hate feeling that way because this site is like a lifeline to me right now and I am looking for credible thinking since learning I cannot find it from Jws.
"I hate God and the JWs and everything about the Bible" doesnt make me feel better.
It makes me feel like backing off.
So to wrap up, I DONT AGREE with the the premise of the afore mentioned scriptures under discussion here but I would have really liked to see some critical thinking skills as to why this was done instead of just slamming.
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opusdei1972
THIS IS WHY JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES ARE AS THEY ARE, BECAUSE THEY LOVE THEIR GOD, WHO IS THE GOD OF THE OLD TESTAMENT.
“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”(Richard Dawkins)
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opusdei1972
I wonder how could Jesus say that his Father and God was the God of the Old Testament. This fact lowers his credibility.
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problemaddict
millie210,
Your post is interesting to me. I can appreciate the need to want to feel as though there is "better" in the world than that which you have rejected. That being said, there are plenty of believers and on believers on this site. I am starting to lean to the agnostic side myself personally. But none of that matters.
Opinions that vary, do not an absense of critical thinking skills make.
In this scripture there are certain things that are clear.
1) Yes it should be considered in the context of the time it was written in.
2) The God that oversees the wrtting of the bible does so outside of time, and the contextual cultures of men at various stages.
3) God told his people through Moses to kill an entire group of people. The reason is irrelevant since it included children.
4) When children were brought back to the camp, for the sake of slavery, and Moses told them to kill all of the boys, are we really to believe that the young 2 year olds, 5 year olds, and infants were spared? What did that look like? Gods annointed presided over this, and no peep of correction.
5) The women who were not virgins could have been identified throguh clothing, a certain age, and more......but does it matter? Imagine the 13 year old who hasn't had her period. Her father killed, her mother killed (because she had her and was no longer a virgin), and her 2 year old brother was just ripped from her and slaughtered. Now she gets to be given to some dude as his 3rd wife or whatever.
I think the moral dilema rests with the person that thinks there is a good reason for taking the concept of a loving benevolent creator God, and mixing it with his approval of situations like this. This much more just reads like the musings of an ancient people that are throwing their God in the mix to justify their actions.
As far as your comments regarding hate......I don't know if anyone here has expressed hate. That is a jump that might be from your past programming. everyone that left is bitter and hateful and rejected God (which some have, so what), etc... You feeling better or worse by it isn't really the issue is it? When others beliefs have no effect on your own feelings and emotions, that is when you know you have made real progress. :)
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steve2
millie210, your reaction is understandable. But please credit us with some critical thinking skills and sense of logic and ability to appraise. I know that for some this is a step too far - pretty much like some Witnesses are okay about moaning about the organization but it is a step too far and even disrespectful to dare suggest the organization is founded upon little else than the private speculations of the religiously deluded.
What happens when you wrap a firm "Do Not Question" bag over religious teachings is you preserve all that is in that bag, regardless of its veracity. It happens with religions and it happens with "sacred" texts.
Because you may not be "ready" to look further than you have, you can always choose not to read through these sorts of threads. But, please, it sounds mighty precious attributing questionable motives to those of us who question "sacred texts". I would have thought that you would be sensitive to the manipulative ways religious leaders keep followers in line and that you would at least have the courage to read through the posts rather than instantly conclude posters' motives are questionable.
When you're ready, take a deep breath, trust your critical functioning and read. Then you decide. But please, being personally hurt and offended is no substitute for the ability to reason and "weigh up" the evidence. As I say, when you're ready...
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rebel8
I just experienced sudden emotional changes.
Before reading this thread-meh, a normal rainy evening.
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if a woman is relaxed during intercourse and has good lubrication and she or her partner has tried to stretch the hymen with fingers, then it likely won't break. So, you can't tell if someone is a virgin if they have a hymen.
ewwwwomgwthwho"tries"tostretchahymen
Then-
Business idea : Working out of a van. "Mobile Hymen stretching "
omgroflewww
Then-
laser treatments, stretch limousine
omgstopstopstop
PS-Millie, I think what's being said is the fact that the scripture can only be reasoned upon by putting it into its historical context (violence, misogyny, slavery) indicates this publication is not the product of a loving god. A loving god wouldn't wait for Iron Age humans to catch up to his perfect ethics and lovingkindness. S/he would take the lead by commanding them to do the right thing and teaching them why. Instead s/he ordered them into battle, mass murder, abuse, rape, slavery, and by his/her own words, "humiliation". -
millie210
I appreciate your very kind and well tempered responses problemaddict, Steve2 and Rebel8.
I lurked for a while here but have only been actively trying to talk with the group fairly recently, so it is nice that you didnt jump all over me and it is ALSO nice that you have patience with people who probably seem to be reinventing some kind of wheel (such as myself)
Like I said, I cant even fathom doing what those scriptures are talking about.
That being said, its a violent world. I think about all the atrocities that have been committed down through time. Nations have been known for their "ethnic cleansing" (horrible term) habits as long as there have been nations.
Most of us live in a genteel world compared to people of the past. I personally don't think that I can read things that happened thousands of years ago and view them with my "now world" mind.
Vikings bashing heads of infants...Aztecs ripping hearts out of virgins, Native Americans scalping women and bashing children, orphans (charmingly portrayed as "street urchins" in literature) starving on streets and being forced in to lives of prostitution and crime and on and on it goes.
None of that is pleasant.
To fling my thoughts off in another direction, it isn't pleasant when the lion catches the gazelle on the Nature channel either. But it is the way life is.
Someone is always deciding who lives/who dies. People decide. Animals decide.
Back to topic, if the purpose was to cleanse the land of inhabitants, then keeping certain people (and age groups) around would have complicated that purpose.
No one is talking about that. (I know, just my opinion - at least I recognize that much - is there hope for me you think?)
What about other issues.
If a plan being considered effective is based on its outcome and not its method, was this plan effective?
Who does get to decide who lives and dies?
What are the criteria for who gets to make those decisions?
Does God (if there is one) have to be Mr Benevolent to qualify to be God?
Why?
It just seems there could have been some discussion instead of a whole bunch of "God is mean." posts.
That is all I was trying to say and I am STILL not saying it as well as I wish I could.
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AndDontCallMeShirley
rebel8: A loving god wouldn't wait for Iron Age humans to catch up to his perfect ethics and lovingkindness. S/he would take the lead by commanding them to do the right thing and teaching them why
This is exactly the point Fundies fail to see.
If their god is so loving, so superior and therefore worthy of worship, why didn't he/she raise humans' morality and higher consciousness rather than stoop to the same level as humans and perpetuate the problems that already existed?
"Historical context" is a lame copout to excuse the inexcusable.
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zeb
As one diagnosed with PTSD I can only wonder what level of brutalized the men who did this slaughter ended up with. How did they then treat their families and their offspring. What manner of society did this create?
The teachings of Jesus are then way out of line with the policy of horrors of old. It just erks me that the wts clings to the 'old testament' (yeah ok its there-- history)as a modus operandi for this time in human history.
They have but one peg in the new testament and that is the doings of Paul. In fact i said to my wife on a few occasions while I was 'in' "We should be called the "Apostle Paul Society" as the wts never mentioned anyone else."
end thought. "A fanatic is one who cant change his mind and who never changes the subject"-- Churchill.