They know the truth when they are lying in bed wide awake at 3 in the morning unable to sleep.
That has to be the worst. It would drive me nuts.
What does the average Witness know?
by Grunt 37 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Will Power
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Perry
Pathofthorns,
I don't know that I'll ever get the totality of the "big picture" What I do know is that I used to use the "one drop of poison in a glass of water" illustration at the doors while clearly seeing the bits and pieces of the lies. What utter hypocrisy I displayed.
In my book, knowing to what ever degree makes one culpable.
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concerned mama
What an interesting question? As an outsider, it always puzzles me how a JW can believe what they do, but then I guess they don't get exposed to alternative viewpoints???? Or do they, and they just don't believe them???
The only JW thatI know well is my daughter's 15 year old boyfriend. He seems to "not know" a whole lot about the outside world even though he lives in it for the school hours every day. I thought a teenager would question everything, especially a religion that isolates him from his school friends and even his girlfriend. What is it, laziness, lack of intellectual curiosity??? I suggested to to my daughter that he was brainwashed, and that infuriated the young man. He says he just doesn't care about any of the issues as they don't affect him??? Huh.....they don't?????? If I was a teenager, I would certainly want to know why I should bleed to dealth rather than accept blood. He says his Mom reads too many little magazines, but he mostly believes what she tells him from them....except the part about "bad associations". He is a sweet, amazingly intelligent kid, but there is just a lack of curiosity there.
I don't think he CONSCIOUSLY knows/thinks much about his religion at all. He says he has no choice because he is a kid, and I have to admit, that's true. It still puzzles me.
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joeshmoe
Concerned Mama:
I wish I knew the answer. Perhaps I would have had a different life. Having grown up a witness, one thing I can say is that from a very early age you are constantly reminded that EVERYONE ELSE IS WRONG. As a witness, you have "the truth" and however sincere others are, they are simply wrong. After a while, I don't care who you are, you start to get an elitest attitude that makes it easy to shrug off others.
This young man sounds like a nice fellow, and I'm sure he's not consciously displaying this attitude. But the longer you're associated, the more ingrained in your subconscousness it becomes. I should know. I was that nice young man once.
Pathofthorns:
That is exactly the way I behaved for more moons than I care to admit.
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Sirona
Mama,
I was a teenage JW. I feel sick now when I remember how I got top marks in all of my classes but was still told to take a "practical" course at college for 1 year and then work. I missed out on higher education entirely, much to the despair of my tutors.
I thought it was the right thing to do. As a teenager, you are finding yourself. You look to those around you as guides. JWs tell you OVER and OVER that there is no future with the *world* and that higher education is basically valueless. You have NO ambition and that is encouraged.
Its a time of waiting. Rather than enjoying your youth and getting some knowledge of how to best live your life, you are told to wait for armageddon. Bide your time, get a basic low paid job, tell other people to bide their time until armageddon. The most exciting thing I had to look forward to was getting married and having children.
Your daughters boyfriend simply thinks that he *must* live like that. He is biding his time until armageddon. WASTING HIS LIFE.
At 24, I finally realised what was happening to me. I realised that if I didn't do something, I'd always work in an office on low wages and I'd never LEARN anything. I knew that one day soon, I'd be 50odd wondering where all the years went as I attended one JW meeting after another and knocked on one door after another. I would never achieve anything, I would never have a positive influence on other peoples lives, I would never be anything more than I was at 24.
I really, really hope that he realises this too, sooner rather than later.
After this realisation of mine, only then did I discover the lies I'd been told by the Watchtower. You simply don't imagine that they'd lie to people! Its a shock to find out.
Lies I'd been told:
1. That as JWs we are free. This is simply not true. Noone explained to me that if I decided to leave (or express opinions contrary to standard JW opinions), I'd be shunned by family and so called friends, whether I'd committed sin or not. Some JWs still believe its only EVIL people who are shunned.
2. That CT Russell had looked at the bible objectively with no other religion influencing him, and he had discovered the truth.
3. That at the time of 1914 Jesus could look at the Bible Students and see a clean and pure group free from pagan influence or false religious influence. This isn't true since I now know that the early bible students were just like any other cult-like religion.
4. That light has always got brighter and teachings have not changed. WOW how much of a lie is that?!
5. That the New World Translation is the most accurate translation of the bible in the world. In actual fact, it is laughed at by the scholars and the people who translated it have changed things to match their 'theology'
6. That the Faithful Slave are faithful...and that they are Gods Channel on earth. As such, their advise has always been for people's good. Clearly this is a total lie, since people have died from following their 'advice'
7. That things like child abuse and domestic violence don't happen in JW households, and if they did happen, the elders would act immediately. This is also been shown to be lies.
8. That the JWs dont predict the hour or the day of armageddon. At this point I wasn't aware of the 1975 fiasco! or any of their other failed prophesies.
9. That women are 'equal' in the JWs. Oh, I realised this as I became an adult!
10. That apostates are demon-possessed. enuf said on that one!
11. That if something is a matter of 'conscience' then you can make your own decision about it without repercussions.I could go on, but suffice it to say that the more witnesses are told that they've been lied to, the better. If they still choose to stay in the 'org' then thats their choice.
Sirona
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dmouse
Its a time of waiting.
I disagree with you on this point, Sirona. You are being too generous of the JW mindset. Waiting can sometimes be beneficial, productive thought and actions can still go on while we wait.
For the JWs, this is a time of STAGNATION. All lives are on hold (except for 'spiritual' goals [8>]) and good JWs do virtually NOTHING constructive with their lives, they rarely even donate to charities for God's sake (why help people who are going to die soon at the big A?).
It is a tragedy of immense proportions - six million people in a coma of their own volition.
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Bona Dea
Since I am not a witness and never have been, I will answer some of these questions as was answered to me by Brother Elder, the witness with whom I used to study. This in no way means, every witness knows these things or would react this way upon hearing them. This has just been my experience...
1. Do they know that Russell got a lot of dates from the measurements of pyramids, including 1914? I wonder if the average Witness knows where he is buried, or that he has a pyramid on his grave?
Brother Elder knew that. His response was that compared to the history of Christendom, that the WTs was pale in comparison. He didn't know about heaven being in Plaides(sp?)...but used the same reasoning (the ole finger-pointing-"they did nastier things than we did" tactic).2. Does the average witness know that the Society teaches that Christ is not their mediator? Most I have talked to don't but it has been printed a lot of different places at a lot of different times. I would like to know just how many are really aware of it or its implications.
I didn't learn this tidbit of info until after we (the witnesses and I) had discontinued our study. But when Brother Elder prayed, he always ended by saying, "in Jesus name, amen"...so, I don't know if he knows or not...3. Does the average "publisher" realize that the organization decided to make the publications available for "donations" to avoid taxes? That it was done AFTER having been involved in a court case as a legal "friend" to Jimmy Swaggart while he fought those taxes, or that they still charge for the publications in other places with different tax laws? Places where money is much more scarce?
He knew this, too. He told me before I ever found it out on my own. He never mentioned, however, that they still charge for publications in other places with diff tax laws. I didn't know that (until just now). I'll have to ask him about that and see what he says.4. Could the average Witness know about all the components of blood being legal or about material made from cow's blood being approved in some cases by the Organization? I hope they know, it means thier lives and the lives of their loved ones. I tried to tell my father this and he shook his head, "Son, we don't take blood, any blood at all!" He doesn't know almost all blood parts are ok, and could die as a result. I wish he knew.
I don't think he knows this. He gave me that new blood video to watch several months ago and I don't remember it mentioning anything about it either. Actually, I'm quite positive he doesn't know.5. Are most of the members of the congregation aware of the flip-flops of the past on everything from all Witnesses being ministers, refusing alternative service, the changed understands on what fornication was, the uproar and divorces caused over the Organization's changed views on oral sex, the change saying transplants are ok from taking transplants being cannibalism? If they do know, I wonder if they have thought about how many lives were ruined by the "old" views and of the humiliation of the people because of them?
Oh yes. I'm not sure if he is aware of every exact issue that you've mentioned here but he knows that they change their minds every other minute (clarification: that is an exaggeration...just in case someone decides to attack me) and seems to justify it as being "teachable" and that it is good that when they see that they are in error that they are willing to change policy, unlike other churches (finger-pointing tactic, again), who will continue to do something even though they know it's wrong....6. Do you think the big change on "This Generation" impacted the regular people who make up the organization very hard? Do they know about all the changes in ages to support it before it was dropped? How the ages of the "generation" were stretched before it was dropped? Did they think about it and just how enormous that change was in relation to all the statements they had made about it? Or did they just gulp and swallow it all like castor oil and refuse to think about it?
I think that the initial reaction probably depends on each individual but in the end (after the thinking and the doubting and the trying to reason with ones self) they just accept it;..."they just gulp and swallow it all like castor oil and refuse to think about it..."7. Do you think most Witnesses have lost loved ones to "apostasy" seen young relatives walk away, and lost their confidence in the Watchtower Society as being the TRUTH, the only ones with the truth?
If a person has an ounce of love, compassion, or any of those endearing qualities, you would think that they would. They probably hurt a little, and may even question this particular practice (shunning)...But do "most" of them lose confidence in the truth (in it's entirety)?...I seriously doubt it.
I think it all goes back to what path said:"Most know it is an imperfect organization with "some" flaws that has made "some" mistakes. I think most still believe it is "the truth" and that "there is nowhere else to go".
BTW, great thread!When presented with specific reasons why the organization is wrong, many just don't want to go there or they simply don't care. I think there are just a handful that understand the big picture and yet continue actively supporting this arrangement."
bona"Half the world is composed of idiots, the other half of people clever enough to take indecent advantage of them."
-Walter Kerr -
Bona Dea
Waiting said:
8. Does the average - longtime - witness know that while he wrote letters to the Malawi government to state his plea to stop the slaughter of Jehovah's Witnesses for not buying a $.25 political card.......elders in Mexico wrote to the Society for guidance on how to approach their legal, ethical, problem.
I asked Brother Elder about this. You would not believe his response. "Well, I guess all the first century christians should've been angry at Peter for denying Christ." Um, ok. I saw his point but it was a very lame response. Peter denied knowing Christ to save his own butt...and later on other Christians died because they refused to deny the name of Christ. Ok. Got it. BUT did Peter have to "ask permission" from a Governing Body to deny Christ or did he "in his own will" deny Christ. Was he kicked out of the congregation for denying Christ? When Christ came back did he give Peter a big lecture or a kick in the arse for doing this? What about those who decided to die for the name of Christ? Would they've been disfellowshiped had they done otherwise?It amazes me, how desperate some people are to defend their faith, that they make goofy justifications such as this one.
Bona
"Half the world is composed of idiots, the other half of people clever enough to take indecent advantage of them."
-Walter Kerr -
CPiolo
Grunt:
I posted recently asking very similar questions:
, http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=26915&site=3CPiolo
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Yadira Angelini
Grunt, thanks, I will read the whole thread later.