Modern Morality .

jhine

Having recently been posting on a thread about OT moral values , which are not widely "appreciated " to say the least , I have been thinking about our modern morals about sex and reletionships , or more acurately the lack of any sexual morals todays . I don't think that we are better off as a society which has gone so far to the do want you want , with whom you want and when you want approach to sexual ethics as we have .

I don't think that women are actually liberated by this attitude . Men still have , to some degree or an another , a double standard attitude to women . Men I am sure that you will disagree agree strongly with this , but how many of you or your friends go to lap dancing clubs (for stag nights ?) or watch porn or ogle page three girls (for Brits ) , enjoy some of the near pornographic videos that acompany much of today's music . Be honest with yourselves now how would you feel about your wives , girlfriends, daughters , sisters , mothers ! doing something like that .

I think that all these young women who are encouraged to use their bodies in these ways and told that they are sexually liberated by this are really just being used , mostly by men , to make money .

Marriage or long term relationships are breaking down more and more not just because of actual but adultery because of issues with pornography , now widely available online and the pressure to experiment with others .

How many young women cannot have children because of Chlamydia , how many(men and women ) are coping with AIDS . How many women are left literally "holding the baby" or going though the pain , and often guilt of abortion .

I am not a rampant feminist , just a mother and grandmother who worries about the future of our young people and society in general if we continue on this path .

Is there an argument for some absolute moral values , sexually speaking , and what should they be ?

Jan

Frazzled UBM

Jan - sorry but I have to disagree - the real evil of the sex trade is the human slavery aspect - use of financial or physical coercion. Thjat is abhorrent and must be stamped out. In the absence of such coercion, I do not believe it should be criminalised and efforts in that direction have failed over the years.

It is a myth that only men enjoy pornography.

In fact I believe the whole WBTS approach to sex and mastrubation is a form of psychological FGM because unlike men, women's ability to orgasm is directly related to their expertise at masturbation. Women generally have to work out how to achieve it themsleves before they can achieve it with a partner so making it a psychological taboo is almost condemning Witness women to a life without orgasms. Arguably this is done for the same reasons as FGM - that is female orgasms are a threat to male sexual dominance. FGM removes the clitoris to stop it and the masturbation taboo creates a psychological barrier to achieving it.

Fraz

Coded Logic

How many young women cannot have children because of Chlamydia , how many(men and women ) are coping with AIDS . How many women are left literally "holding the baby" or going though the pain , and often guilt of abortion .

Here in the United States I often speak with theist who try to use the "We are more morale than atheist/agnostics" card. While there is no direct way to measure morality, there are certain factors at which we can look. For example, atheist have both lower rates of both STDs and also teen pregnancies then their Christian counterparts. And Christian women is six times more likely to have an abortion than atheist women.

In order to make good decisions you have to have a good model of how reality works. There are plenty of couples who watch pornography and still have a great sex life. Because they can talk about it openly and have good lines of communication. There are plenty of individuals who sleep around a lot and don't get STDs. Because they exercise safe sex practices. There are many men and woman who are comfortable in their bodies and don't feel sexually degrigated. Because they have learned to accept themselves for who and what they are.

The problem isn't that people are "too liberal". The problem is that, in a large part due to religion, many people think of human sexuality in negitive terms. They try to surpress their feeling and emotions which often leads to lower self esteem and greater liklyhood of taking unneccissary risks - like not using condoms or other kinds of protection.

When we accept who we are - then we can make good decisions. But when we reject who we are - it's a recipe for disaster.

Sex is a naturall part of being human. If you want to share it with just one person - that's a beautiful and wonderful thing. If you want to sleep around a lot and you are honest with your partners - that's great too. Not everyones the same. And no one should be advocating that we all should be.

lurkernomore

The Searcher

All areas of society are reaping the consequences of the "sexual liberation" of previous decades - morally, physically, emotionally, psychologically, and financially - fact!

Live life exactly how you want to live it - but be prepared to pay the costs afterwards.

Terry

People are just people.

If you back up too far, you see them as a clump of misbehaving species.

If you get too close, you smell their breath.

If you try and graph human behavior you get a Bell Curve.

On one extreme are the misfits, cretins and jackals.

On the other extreme are the genius, the self-sacrificing hero, and the humanitarian.

Smack dab in the middle is this swelling curve. That's were MOST are crammed together in an elevator trying not to fart.

Hey--THAT'S US. Thank you for not farting!

jhine

OK , I am not defending the WBTS aproach to sexuality , I am not a Witness and I agree that their interference in marital relationships is way overboard . This thread is nothing to do with the Watchtower .

Coded Logic I do not want this to become another atheist versus theist argument . Lots of atheists are very concerned about the attitude young people have towards sex . 10 yr olds sexting , sexual assualts and even rape being commited by younger and younger children . I live by a pathway that 11 - 16 yr olds use for school and the talk that I hear is for me worrying . One of the things that stands out is the attitude of some of the boys towards the girls . Many do objectify girls and have no respect for them as people .

Yes , women watch porn , it is the basic attitudes of men and women that are different . I notice that so far no one has answered my point about double standards . Would you really be comfortable with one of the women in your life doing a job in any part of the sex industry ? If you cannot answer TRUTHFULLY yes , then why not ?

Is it really good for society that stable family life is disintigrating ?

I am not advocating laws to make people conform , just questioning whether we have gone to far in the other direction with our moral compass .

Jan

Frazzled UBM

Jan - I disagree that stable family life is disintegrating - where is your evidence for this? Families remain the core social unit in Western society and thankfully we now recognise same sex marriages as legitimate families - so in that respect family life has expanded. The reasons for some social changes are often economic - the so called sexual revolution and increase in the divorce rate were to some extent a result of increased prosperity, birth control and women becoming more financially independent - whereas previously women stayed in unhappy marriages because they were financially dependent. The decrease in 20 somethings getting marriage reflects the price of real estate mor ethan anything else. Morality reflects societal conditions and has to adapt to those changes in societal and economic conditions. Morality is a man-made set of principles - they are not absolute or set in stone. Your attitudes may be a reflection of the fact that the world has moved on from the world you grew up in which set your moral code (or moral compass). Modern morality is no less valid than the morality you grew up with. STDs have been around for a long time and are no more prevalent now than 50 years ago. It's just they were different back then - Syphillis and Gonorhea dominated then followed Herpes.

As for the Searcher's comment: "All areas of society are reaping the consequences of the "sexual liberation" of previous decades - morally, physically, emotionally, psychologically, and financially - fact!" This is trite - social and political changes in one period have consequences in subsequent periods - duh! How such consequences manifest themselves and whether such consequences are good or bad are a matter of opinion.

Iown Mylife

LOL Terry - you're welcome

Marina

jgnat

I also have to chime in. Canada is closer to Europe when it comes to sexual mores. One of our most popular Prime Ministers famously said, "There's no place for the state in the bedrooms of the nation". So you see more sex and less violence in our television programming than you do in the US. Not to mention comedy.

http://www.cbc.ca/archives/categories/politics/rights-freedoms/trudeaus-omnibus-bill-challenging-canadian-taboos/theres-no-place-for-the-state-in-the-bedrooms-of-the-nation.html

I am worried about the teen pregnancy rate in the southern states. That's a sign that something is not right. But I don't think it's a failure of morality. I think it is a failure to convince a young girl she can have a better life.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/10/20/us-usa-births-teens-idUSTRE69J4AE20101020

Using Haidt's moral foundations model, there are societies that put more weight on Care/Harm than on Sanctity/Degradation.

http://moralfoundations.org/

So the question would be for a particular sex activity, who is harmed? As for STD's, countries like Holland that have open dialogue and universal sex education have record low abortion rates and STD's that would do the US proud.

http://www.alternet.org/story/154970/5_countries_that_do_it_better%3A_how_sexual_prudery_makes_america_a_less_healthy_and_happy_place

I would even go so far to suggest that the state could remove itself entirely from marriage and divorce registration.

Modern Morality .

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