Is truth relative?

by Pinku 34 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Finkelstein
    Finkelstein

    When it comes to the idealogical concept of spiritualism truth does becomes relative.

    As regards to that Judge in India who contacts spirits to help in resolving Judaical decisions,

    what a egregious problematic fraud, what if he contacts

    an evil spirit that wants to cause misjudgment ? ..... oops !

    .

    Instead of using rational analytical evaluations extrapolated from accumulative evidence,

    he just asks spirits to tell what is right and what is wrong or what kind of judgment he should

    dictate.

    If it was known that a Judge was doing that in a first world country he would most likely get disbarred from

    the law institution all together.

  • Perry
    Perry

    If someone peddles the truth that there is no truth, why should I believe him?

    There are no eternal facts, as there are no absolute truths.
    – Friedrich Nietzsche: Human, All-too-Human

    It is impossible for us, of our own volition to have a God's eye view of the universe. So, many like to say truth is subjective, and as such is subject to alteration because that statement relates to our subjective experience in our environment. However, truth could exist outside of our personal experience and we would be none the wiser. For instance, if a man is charged with killing his neighbor, he either did it or not. Our beliefs about the guilt or innocence is quite outside of the "Gods-eye" view.

    So, I guess I'm arguing for , no.

  • Viviane
    Viviane

    Communication with spirit world is no longer a grand-mother tale.

    Correct, it's 100% lies.

    Unless, of course, you can tell us what "spirit" is made of and prove it. Then you might have a starting point.

  • Coded Logic
    Coded Logic

    Pinku - thanks for your reply. Though to be honest, your ideas were so fragmentary and disjointed it was difficult to understand exactly what point, if any, you were trying to make. And, while I would much prefer to address an overreaching topic, I will instead have to settle for addressing each of your points independently.

    To start with, you talk about the “visible” and the “invisible”. As far as I can gather, you’re not actually talking about things which can be seen and things that can’t be seen. But instead are addressing “knowns” and “unknowns.” Or, to be more precise, “knowns” and “ the unknown-unknowns.” Though, what this concept has to do with rest of your remarks, escapes me. Reality exists in and of itself. What we know about reality - or don’t know about reality - doesn’t change what it is.

    You made the statement that,

    Anything that changes with respect to circumstances is not true reality.

    I have absolutely no idea why you would think this. I don’t mean to be rude, but this is probably one of the most absurd statements that I have ever had the misfortune of reading. EVERYTHING in our universe changes in respect to circumstances [1]. Even NOTHING itself changes [2]. If your statement were true, we would live in a completely static universe where nothing ever happens or changes.

    Truth can describe how things were, are, and will be. Truth can also describe how and why things change. The one thing that truth doesn’t describe, is things that never change (i.e. absolutes). This is easily demonstrated, If you take a physical law and put in different values (circumstances) you will get different answers. Because physical laws are descriptors of reality [3]. Even the laws themselves are not absolute. They are conditional upon the properties of space time and energy [4].

    Quantum Mechanics reveals that space and time have no meaning unless there is a conscious observer.

    No, quantum mechanics does NOT reveal that. Because quantum mechanics does not - and cannot - be used to address “meaning” [5]. “Meaning” is a subjective value metric that we assign to things, principles, ideas, etc. “Meaning” is not a scientific proposition.

    Meaning ≠ Explanation

    Meaning requires purpose. Explanation does not require purpose. Quantum mechanics can only be used to explain things. It cannot be used to assign purpose to things.

    Currently physicists take a stand that physical principles really don’t require the concept of time.

    This is untrue. Physicists state that how we perceive time MAY be completely wrong. But physical principles still require the use of time [6].

    All these prove that even space and time are not really basic properties of the universe; rather, they are products of our own mind.

    Okay, once again I don’t mean to be rude, but you are just not sufficiently enlightened to be discussing these topics. You don’t have have a grasp on the most basic fundamentals of general relativity and quantum mechanics. Much less the comprehensive knowledge needed to “prove” anything about “the basic properties of the universe.”

    Please don’t take this as a personal attack, but if you want to make claims about science you need to FIRST understand the science at hand. You have a lot of learning to do. And I don’t want to scoff at your ignorance. Rather, I want to arm you intellectually. There are some fantastic books out there written by actual physicists who understand the principles you’re discussing. I would recommend Brian Greene’s book The Elegant Universe for you. It starts with the basics and gradually gets into some of the deeper aspects of physics.

    [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronology_of_the_universe

    [2] https://archive.org/stream/arxiv-1302.0568/1302.0568_djvu.txt

    [3] http://www.oed.com/search?searchType=dictionary&q=Law+of+Nature

    [4] http://www.physics.rutgers.edu/~friedan/papers/PRL_45_1980_1057.pdf

    [5] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory

    [6] http://arxiv.org/pdf/hep-th/0512134.pdf

  • bohm
    bohm

    Coded Logic, (/pinku):

    It is ofcourse commendable that you use references to back up your statements but I cannot help to notice the references often do not match the claim being made. For instance:

    Even NOTHING itself changes [2].

    Reference 2 is a article in ArXiv (or rather, a garbled version of an article from ArXiv in plaintext) by Mithani & Vilenkin on a particular recent proposal by Hartle, Hawking and Hertog on quantum cosmology which (in a particular setting) could give rise to inflation. They derive this result from other considerations and show (and this is the important bit) that the model of this sort have unphysical features which in the oppinion of MV make it unphysical. I skimmed the article but what I have written is apparent by just reading the abstract. How does that support your claim?

    Moving on to another claim:

    Even the laws themselves are not absolute. They are conditional upon the properties of space time and energy [4].

    This may be the case, however from reference 4 (which is only a bullet list from wikipedia):

    Several general properties of physical laws have been identified ... Physical laws are: (...)

    • Absolute. Nothing in the universe appears to affect them. (Davies, 1992:82)

    again, how does that support your claim in any non-trivial sense? or do you simply mean: Physical laws make use of physical concepts, therefore they are not absolute. I hardly see how anyone could deny that and I see no indication that Pinku does.

    Then moving on there is the claim:

    But physical principles still require the use of time [6].

    Again this may very well be true, however reference 6 is a discussion on a particular geometry introduced in 1947 by Snyder. The very first line of the article is: "The possiblity that space-time may be noncommutative in the sence that (equation indicating non-commutation of space-time) has appeared recently in String theory". Again I fail to see how an article that discuss a particular proposal indicated by String theory and which assumes space-time coordinates can be construed to support your claim.


    Again, it is commendable to introduce citations of technical work to support claims, however the use of citations to brow-beat people without technical knowledge is clearly fallicious and harmfull, a bit akin to the story of the child and the naked emporer. Do you actually understand your citations 2 and 4 and can you in that case ellaborate on how they support your claims? (mind I am not asking you to argue that the claims as such are true).

  • Coded Logic
    Coded Logic

    Hey Boehm! Thanks for the questions. When I was providing my citations I had actually wanted to get much deeper into the physics but I felt that doing so would alienate Pinku rather than draw them in. But I'm glad you asked as it allows me to really get into the subjects that I enjoy.

    In regards to my second citation, Vilenkin used a model of a closed space time with zero energy and then shrank it down to a zero radius. When he did this the "nothing" became unstable and virtual particle paris formed and vacuume energy caused expansion (i.e. the "nothing" changed). (I apologies about the plain text, it was the only location of the paper I could find where you didn't have to pay to download it as a PDF).

    As regards to my fourth citation you must have clicked on the thread right after I posted. I immediately realized I used the wrong hyper link and changed it to the correct one. It's a paper by Friedan discussing how the non-linear sigma model shows that our universe might have formed higher dimensions (up to 26) from a starting point of just 2 dimensions. While there are many papers I could have cited on different physical laws at the big bang, I thought this one most appropriate considering Pinku's earlier reference to higher dimensions.

    In regards to my sixth citation the paper shows that even at the plank scale the Lorentz Covariance can be preserved. The basic problem with gravity is how to quantize space-time geometry (think of quantized space-time geometry like a lattice structure of grid points). The problem with any lattice structure is that it breaks Lorentz invariance. Noncommutative geometry solves this problem by maintaining Lorentz invariance and space-time structure at small length scales. While there are probably much better papers linking quantum mechanics to time this is the only one I could cite that I somewhat understand.

    I appologize if I came off as trying to browbeat anyone. That is the complete opposite of what I want to do. In the past I have cited much more accessible resources (Wikipedia and various scientfic pop magazines) but invariably someone always jumps up and points out "Hey, those aren't science! Anyone one can write that crap!" So I've taken to mostly citing academic and peer reviewed work. Damned if you do damned if you don't I guess. Perhaps in the future I'll cite both to try and dispell the confusion.

    Anyway, once again thanks for asking. I'm glad I had the oppertunity to get into it. Also, I'm an autodidact at best so if you ,or anyone else, has a better understanding of the topics or more applicable academic sources they can cite I would love to hear it and read it.

    Thanks!

  • Onager
    Onager

    Yet a closer look beneath the details would show that truth is not relative, and everyone KNOWS what is right and wrong.

    You can't squidge these two statements together even if you do try to join them with a comma and an and!

    1) Truth is absolute.

    2) Nobody knows what everyone knows.

    3) Right and wrong are subjective.

  • bohm
    bohm

    Coded logic:

    Re. the first citation you write:

    Vilenkin used a model of a closed space time with zero energy and then shank it down to a zero radius. When he did this the "nothing" became unstable and virtual particle paris formed and vacuume energy caused expansion (i.e. the "nothing" changed)

    Actually, Vilenkin studied the HHH model of inflation in quantum gravity and showed (1) it could be re-derived from more general principles and (2) it had certain unphysical features like tachyons (a polite way to say it is not workable as it is). I have now read the paper and I cannot see any parts of the paper where they indicate they study the model with radius shrunk to zero and claims the model in this case would be unstable, specifically I believe a radius of zero lie outside the valid regime for the HHH model. What page/equations/lines of the paper is it you find to support this claim regarding zero radius universe?

    (I apologies about the plain text, it was the only location of the paper I could find where you didn't have to pay to download it as a PDF).

    So you have not read it? how then do you know your summary is correct when it is not at all supported by the abstract? The paper is freely available from arxiv.

    As regards to my fourth citation (...) It's a paper by Friedan discussing how the non-linear sigma model shows that our universe might have formed higher dimensions (up to 26) from a starting point of just 2 dimensions.

    but then is it not more accurate to say in some models of the universe the laws of physics are not absolute in some sense but we do not really know?

    You continue:

    In regards to my sixth citation the paper shows that even at the plank scale the Lorentz Covariance can be preserved. The basic problem with gravity is how to quantize space-time geometry (think of quantized space-time geometry like a lattice structure of grid points). The problem with any lattice structure is that it breaks Lorentz invariance. Noncommutative geometry solves this problem by maintaining Lorentz invariance and space-time structure at small length scales. While there are probably much better papers linking quantum mechanics to time this is the only one I could cite that I somewhat understand.

    Now that is a very nice description of some of the problems facing QG and string theory. I tried to put it into google and lo and behold I get the following article: http://scienceandnonduality.wordpress.com/2013/01/11/noncommutative-geometry-holography-and-solipsism/

    Comparing the referenced article against yours gives: (referenced article in yellow)

    The basic problem with gravity is how to quantize space-time geometry

    The basic problem in quantum gravity is how to quantize space-time geometry.

    A quantized space-time geometry is like a lattice structure of grid points that replaces the space-time continuum: (image of a 2d square lattice)

    (think of quantized space-time geometry like a lattice structure of grid points).

    The problem with any lattice structure is that it breaks Lorentz invariance.

    The problem with any lattice structure is that it breaks Lorentz invariance and cannot be considered as fundamental.

    Noncommutative geometry solves this problem by maintaining Lorentz invariance and space-time structure at small length scales.

    A noncommutative geometry solves this problem by maintaining Lorentz invariance while effectively introducing a grid of lattice points through a noncommutative structure at small length scales.

    Obviously re-phrasing someones elses work to make it appear like your own is not exactly conving me you have a very firm grasp of what you write. At any rate this is completely tangential to how the reference is actually used; if your point is simply that most formulations of physics include time then that is obvious by opening any elementary textbook in physics; you do not need to cite a fairly obscure paper on non-commutative spacetimes.


    I appologize if I came off as trying to browbeat anyone. That is the complete opposite of what I want to do. In the past I have cited much more accessible resources (Wikipedia and various scientfic pop magazines) but invariably someone always jumps up and points out "Hey, those aren't science! Anyone one can write that crap!"

    At this point you should then point out to the person that your claim is still true and give him additional references. These are by the way often found at the bottom of the wikipedia page.

    It is much, much better to cite wikipedia than choose an article on inflationary cosmology which do not even discuss the point you are interested in, or at least do not discuss it any more than hundreds of other articles on physics. The purpose of referencing work should be to make the text more accessible for a reader by ensuring he or she can check the claims in his own time, not to jazz up ones written work by the most hard-to-read articles you yourself have not even read. I believe we have had this discussion before regarding logic.

    Finally, for gods sake, if you are going to plagiarize something DON'T change the wording SLIGHTLY. It is much better to copy it in full and later claim to not have done it on purpose.

  • Coded Logic
    Coded Logic

    What page/equations/lines of the paper is it you find to support this claim regarding zero radius universe?

    Vacuum space set at an energy density of <0 with a wave function of zero (pages 2 and 3 opening perameters and step 6).

    but then is it not more accurate to say in some models of the universe the laws of physics are not absolute in some sense but we do not really know?

    No, that would not have been more accurate.

    Obviously re-phrasing someones elses work to make it appear like your own is not exactly conving me you have a very firm grasp of what you write.

    Your mistake. The point of my citations isn't to show YOU that I have a firm graps on what I write. It's to show that what I write is accurate. You can complain all day and all night that I "don't really understand" but, as my statements to Pinku were completely true, I really don't care what level of understanding you think I do or do not have. And, more importantly, when I sit down and read a peer reivewed scientfic article - I ACTUALLY READ THEM. I don't just give it a currsory scan and then emphatically state "this doesn't have anything to do with what your talking about." Because had you actually done that - you wouldn't be in the uncomfortable position you're in right now desperately seeking some Red Herring to distract from massive blunder you've made.

    if your point is simply that most formulations of physics include time then that is obvious by opening any elementary textbook in physics

    Please cite an elementary textbook in physics that shows quantum mechanics requires the existance of time.

    It is much, much better to cite wikipedia than choose an article on inflationary cosmology which do not even discuss the point you are interested in, or at least do not discuss it any more than hundreds of other articles on physics.

    WTF?!! I DID cite a Wikipedia article on cosmic infaltion! Serriously dude, what is your problem? Learn how to read.

    not to jazz up ones written work by the most hard-to-read articles you yourself have not even read

    Well this is just adorable. You're accusing me of having not read it? Wow, you are unbelievable.

    I believe we have had this discussion before regarding logic.

    No. Being logical and being a jack ass are not the same thing. When I said "if you had better understanding of the topics or more applicable academic sources you can I would love to hear it" - the key words were "better understanding" and "more applicable academic sources." It was not an invitation to bitch and moan that my citations are "too hard to read."

    If you have some learning or reading disablity that's okay. But please don't go around telling me I haven't read something when A.) I have - and B.) you clearly haven't.

  • Oubliette
    Oubliette

    Bohm: Finally, for gods sake, if you are going to plagiarize something DON'T change the wording SLIGHTLY. It is much better to copy it in full and later claim to not have done it on purpose.

    Bohm, I'm hoping you are being sarcastic!

    This is for those unclear on when and how to cite your sources: What is plagiarism?

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