by minimus 30 Replies latest jw friends
I doubt they really understand the "truths" outlined by the Watchtower. When I was learning TTATT, I spoke to a few people - not to convince them that they were wrong, but to help me understand. I was hoping that through these conversations I could understandy why the JWs had the truth.
I soon gave up. It was clear that they did not understand basic Watchtower concepts.
What about soilders? Do you think all soilders believe what there superiors tell them? Of course not but right or wrong they respect authority.
OneEyedJoe: In my experience you'd be hard pressed to find a jw under 60 who even knows the official stance on 50% of the doctrine, so it's impossible that they all believe it everything. That's part of why it's so difficult to wake someone up - you can't argue doctrine because they don't know doctrine in the first place. If you prove a doctrine wrong, they just assume that you've misrepresented the doctrine (like all apostates do) and they're to lazy to look it up.
Even excepting that, of say a healthy percentage consciously disagree with doctrine, but know to keep their trap shut about it. I don't think they're afraid of a JC per se, I think it goes back to laziness. If you talk about doubts, you will at the very least get a back room talking to, and might end up having to re-study some particular bit of propaganda with one of the elders. That's a lot of trouble, and they don't want to do it.
Actually the very fact that 90% of jws are too lazy to ensure that they have "an accurate knowledge of truth" goes against core doctrine on is own.
I agree.
Apognophos [referring to OneEyedJoe's post]: Actually, OEJ... I could argue that their lack of knowledge of doctrine means by default that they do believe everything. They are letting the slave tell them what to think, based on the desire they have to place blind faith in these men. They could study an article next week that contradicts several of the "deeper" teachings and not notice that anything had changed, but they would believe the material wholeheartedly. They could study an article the week after that which contradicted the previous one, and even if some thought, "Hmm, I don't understand how this reconciles with last week's article", they would shrug and assume the slave knows what it's talking about.
I turned your expression around, not to play a game of semantics, but to make the serious point that when people are willing to 'follow any directions even if they don't seem logical', what you have on your hands is definitely a group of true believers.
That being said, there are no doubt some JWs who were put off by the statement that they must follow any and all directions. They regard the GB as a group of imperfect men and so they would not jump off a bridge just because the slave told them to. Others, however, would definitely jump.
I see what you're saying, and sort of agree, but must make this clarification. I think OneEyedJoe is right; it cannot be said that JWs believe the doctrine if they don't know it. Your point is that they believe in the org, so they just accept whatever it says, but that does not mean they believe all the individual doctrinal points. I don't think it can be logically said that they believe all the doctrine if they don't know or understand it. If my wife said "I believe in Einstein's theory of relativity," I would say "you can't say that because you have no clue what relativity is." She might be so in awe of Einstein (because of her ingorance and naivete) that she just thinks whatever he says is right, even though she doesn't even know or understand what he says. However, I don't think it would be logical to say she believes in the specifics of what he says; she simply believes in him.
So, ignorant JWs might believe fully in the org, but one shouldn't say that that means they believe in the individual doctrinal points; they can't if they don't know them. Example: Several elders in my former congregation taught that Luke 21:28 applies now - that JWs should now lift their heads up because their deliverance is near. They think they are believing/teaching doctrine that is organizationally correct; they are not. The org teaches that that verse applies only after the tribulation has started - that at that point JWs can lift their heads, etc.
So those elders believe in the org and think they believe what it teaches, but it's meainingless to say they believe what it teaches because they don't know what it teaches.
Oubliette: I also know that even most of the elders can't keep all of the confusing, incoherent and ever-shifting doctrines straight. So in that sense, not all JWs believe everything the religion teaches. Most JWs aren't even clear on what their religion teaches!
I agree.
I was an elder for nearly 20 years. Never really believed the blood stuff prohibition, the resurrection theory of who will be raised and who will not, the "spirit anointing" of the partakers, how part of Revelation could be symbolic and some things be literal, the calculation of the 2,520 years from 607bc, how we came up with 607bc, "the day for a year" punishment formula, really most of the bs that didn't go along with common sence, etc....... but I went along because I was also a 'captive of the concept'. Holy crap----50 years of going along.
just saying
eyeuse2badub
The sad part, at least for me, is that I can't come right out and ask my brother or my cousins who are still in exactly how they feel or what all they believe. We grew up as one big close family, every one on my dads side a JW, mom, dad, brother, sister, aunts, uncles, cousins. My brother and most of my cousins are still in. All our parents are gone now, except for one aunt who is 88. We were the 1975 generation who were told not to go to college, etc. My sister blew that off and got her degree and had a great career in journalism. She is now very comfortable in her retirement, unlike most of my still in cousins.
I can't just sit down and say, "Hey brother, how do you really feel about this, do you still believe it all, all the changes, do you think those of us who had the brains and ambition should have gone to college. Should you have let your kids play sports in high school? Should cousins A & B have done more to plan for retirement? If this is the truth, why has everything changed, why are all those big boring books we studied on Tuesday nights no longer relevant? Why is it that if I wanted to come back after 30 years of being out, I would have to learn everything different? What kind of truth is it that has changed so much?"
And you know, as you all have said, we would get the same answers from them: well, it is new light, we are moving forward, imperfect men, and blah, blah, blah. It used to make me so frustrated but now I am at the stage where I honestly feel sorry for them and their closed minds and allowing themselves to be dictated to by those geezers in Brooklyn. And that is not a very good feelling, to feel sorry for your family.
eyeuse, you were my type of elder!😉
I think a lot are frightened not to believe. What else is there for them?? Disfellowshipped, I guess.
Maybe the future of the religion is to change from an "intellectual" religion to a faith based religion (faith in the worst sense of the word). In other words, they don't even try to give convincing evidence to back up beliefs; just accept what the wiser Big Brother says.
It wasn't always like that. When I grew up in the 50s' amd 60s' we were given intellectual reasons (however specious) to have an intellectual framework for our belief system. Someone mentioned a change for people under and over 60. Perhaps that trend will grow as the old-timers die out; and the GB become more cynical, as I think they'll have to, to keep their position. Just believe, they'll say. Their private thoughts will be: "after us the deluge". That can work for them until they're buried in the graveyard with Rutherford.
eyeuse2badub: I was an elder for nearly 20 years. Never really believed the [long list of foolish beliefs] ....... but I went along because I was also a 'captive of the concept'. Holy crap----50 years of going along.
I think that aptly sums up the theological position of the majority of JWs, they just go along because they are "captive." Also, they HOPE it's true because they want to have a pet panda in paradise.
I think most jdubs go along because they really don't know how to live without the structural confines of the bOrg club. It's not important to them to understand--but they need to Belong.
