144,000 Jewish Christians (page 2)

designs

And Chris that is the opposite of what Judaism teaches about their messiah. Paul was just making up a new religion.

factfinder

A person cannot be a "Jewish" Christian! Both religions are too different and are at odds.

A Jew can be a "Christian" which is a religion, but he will no longer be considered "Jewish" if he becomes a Christian. He is still a "Jew" if he was born one, but is no longer "Jewish" since his religion is now "Christian".

As Designs mentioned, the Christian teaching of Messiah is not the same as the Jewish teaching of Messiah. They are two completly different religions and concepts.

Chris Tann

I understand. I guess my label " Jewish Christian" is not accurate. I was referring to Jews, such as the apostles, who accepted Jesus. In the very early stages these Jews still practiced much of Judaism while believing in Jesus sacrifice. It was individuals such as Paul and Peter who started to reason that these first believers did not HAVE to continue practicing certain Jewish commands under the law( ie. Circumcision, sacrifices ). This, they claimed they received from the spirit and reasoning on the Hebrew scriptures ( the book of Hebrews is a good example).

However, the only point I was trying to make is that it is possible that the first Jews who believed in Jesus were the remnant of Israel that would not be destroyed in the Jewish Roman war of 70c.e.. Thus the labeling of them in Revelation 14 as FIRST FRUITS to God, aka the 144,000. Whether future generations of that first group evolved into a totally different religion than the Jews is irrelevant to my point.

p.s., if God's plan was for the next phase,if you will, of his religion to totally change after the revealing of the Messiah.. so be it.

Pterist

Chris Tann -***Therefore I lean toward the understanding that the 144,000 were the first Jewish Christians of the first century before the fall of Jerusalem in 70c.e****

i agree, it's the same message as In JohN 10:16

I have other sheep, too, that are not in this sheepfold. I must bring them also. They will listen to my voice, and there will be one flock with one shepherd. the little flock is the LIMITED amount of Jews that accept Jesus as the Christ, then the message when to the Gentiles where a great crown accept Jesus as their a a Christ... the WBTS GB would be fortunate to be considered worthy of a court yard position, like the rest of us plebs :)

Pterist

Revelation 21 the disclosure of the bride .aka the New Jerusalem, shows the Jews had first right of refusal to the promises made to them to be a blessings in the heavens to th nations, and is just another recapitulation of rev 7:1-7, rev 14:1-5 ..I'm assuming the spiritual building started just after 70 AD when the old temple was destroyed.....and apparently will descend in a future time period ,,,,,,NOT 1914 LOL ;)

objectivetruth

fact finder - your statement "A person cannot be a "Jewish" Christian! Both religions are too different and are at odds." is factually incorrect. An example of a Jewish Christian - Peter.

Peter was Jewish by birth, and he continued to practice Judaism after he became a Christian (A Folllower of Christ) A jewish Christian would be someone that is first and foremost a member of the Jewish faith (He continues to observe the Mosaic Law) , and secondly he accepts Jesus as the Messiah (Not as God)

Also I agree that both religions are quite different, however his is not because of Jesus, this is because of Paul. Jesus had the objective of ending Animal Sacrifice and teaching and showing by Example how to properly follow The Law. He did not start Christianity as we kmow it, that was Paul that started A new Religion, with his " Saved because of Faith" and "Ransom Sacrifice" doctrine.

By the way.. I agree that the 144,000 are Jewish Christians.

sowhatnow

the bible says the 144000 are the 12000 from each tirbe. now if we take that litterally which i guess we should, then its solved.

since neither jesus nor the apostles mentioned the number, or a group like that, why would we interpret it as symbolic? they for some reason had no knowlege of it, or need to know it?

we cant pick and choose which is sybolism and which is literal correct? its one way or the other.

i find it foolish for some people to read a verse in revelation, and say the first sentence is litteral and the second is symbolic.

my mother does that, and it makes no sense, i told her that revelation is all symbolic, it wasnt written to be litteral.

these people who claim they are annointed, are not of the 144000. the 144000 may be annointed, and chosen, but where in the bible does it say that

only 144000 would be annointed? does it even say that the 144000 are annointed? or does it say chosen ones?

jesus said I HAVE OTHER SHEEP. those i must also bring. so there can be many more 'annointed' people, of all faiths all over the world, IF we belive the bible is for real of course. and some of us are still up in the air about that.

prologos

Are we are to take the Revelation seriously, or just as an object for discussion?

The list of the 12 tribes in chaptr. 7 is different than any in the OT. You have a tribe of Joseph but do not have Dan nor Ephrahim, and Levi who is missing from some of the agricultural lists. so

How can it be of the natural Israelites if some are missing from the 13 or 14 total? and

They are not ANOiNTED, but they are SEALED. like a SEALED FATE= Stephen's martyrdom.

It is like a projection on a screen, it can not be taken too seriously.

PS. surely there would have to be some basis to exclude agenealogical tribes from such a list, as so much dependet on the blessing from your ancestors!

factfinder

objectivetruth-

Jesus is not the Jewish Messiah. Peter could not continue in Judaism and yet at the same time believe Jesus is the Messiah.

For one thing, the Jewish Messiah has two human parents, and does not become a sacrifice to cover other's sins as the Jewish religion teaches no-one else can die for your sins.

Judaism also teaches that God does not want or accept human sacrifice.

The Jewish Messiah will not be a redeemer for people's sins.

But Jesus said he was there to die for his followers sins and would be sacrificed. A follower of Judaism would not have accepted Jesus as Messiah.

I am Jewish by birth as are all of my blood relatives. But while I was a witness, therefore a' Christian" my relatives did not consider me to be "Jewish" because I was a "Christian"!

Peter could not have accepted and believed that Jesus would die for his (and other's sins) if he really believed in Judaism.

Also, the Jewish Messiah is not "the son of God". But Jesus taught that he was. Peter beleived that.

Chris Tann

Fact finder, you make valid points for consideration. Unfortunately you have deviated from my theme; identifying the 144,000, not that the Jewish understanding of the Messiah is different from the Christians understanding. Simply put, some from among the Jews were the first believers in Jesus as the fulfillment of the Messianic prophecies in the first century, this group may be the first fruits (144,000) of Revelation.

However, with regard to the listing of the tribes are different ,pro logos, than that of the Hebrew scriptures, there may be an answer to that. There are good websites to check out explaining that some tribes were rejected for unfaithfulness and replaced by others. Symbolic or not, the description of the 144,000 in verse seven is very Jewish in identification in comparison with the great crowd who are from the nation's; which I may suggest as many have, are simply those of the nations accepting the good news. They have the same hope and destination as the 144,000.

144,000 Jewish Christians

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