Christians: Question about, "Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you..."

Zoos

Hebrews 13:17 - Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you and be submissive, for they are keeping watch over your souls as those who will render an account; that they may do this with joy and not with sighing, for this would be damaging to you.

vs.

Psalms 146:3 - Do not put your trust in nobles,
Nor in the son of earthling man, to whom no salvation belongs.

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Are these scriptures unrelated in that one is talking about a spiritual headship and the other is talking about a government authority?

I've always understood the Psalms passage as being connected to spiritual headship because it is tied to salvation. If that's the case, then what son of earthling man am I supposed to be submissive to AS IF HE were keeping watch over my soul?

Is this one of those find-a-happy-medium examples like "obey the superior authorities" and "we must obey God rather than man" conundrum?

If the Psalms passage is not related to the other, then my question still stands: Who is the bible telling modern Christians to be submissive to and what human can possibly stand in a position of being responsible for someone else’s soul unless we're talking solely about adults vs. minor children?

Rattigan350

"those who are taking the lead among you"

Simple. Don't be among them and it won't apply.

Phizzy

What needs thinking about is when Hebrews was written and why, the answers to those 2 questions are very revealing.

An educated guess is all we can do to date the letter, but the consensus is it wqs written around 80 to 90 C.E. At this time the "Church" by which we are talking of the gentile majority church, was undergoing Apostasy, hence the need to "go back to the basics", and dwindling support and attendance, hence the call for better following of the lead of those who did attend.

All of these problems were begining to appear because Jesus had not returned.

Sound familiar ?

The problems for the WT/JW religion today are a mirror of those times.

Bobcat

A better comparison to get the flavor of what Hebrews 13:17 is saying is to compare it with:

(3 John 9, 10 NWT) . . .I wrote something to the congregation, but Di·ot′re·phes, who likes to have the first place among them, does not receive anything from us with respect. 10 That is why, if I come, I will call to remembrance his works which he goes on doing, chattering about us with wicked words. Also, not being content with these things, neither does he himself receive the brothers with respect, and those who are wanting to receive them he tries to hinder and to throw out of the congregation.
and . . .
(2 Corinthians 11:3-5) . . .But I am afraid that somehow, as the serpent seduced Eve by its cunning, YOUR minds might be corrupted away from the sincerity and the chastity that are due the Christ. 4 For, as it is, if someone comes and preaches a Jesus other than the one we preached, or YOU receive a spirit other than what YOU received, or good news other than what YOU accepted, YOU easily put up [with him]. 5 For I consider that I have not in a single thing proved inferior to YOUR superfine apostles.

In 3 John 9, 10, Diotrephes is described as someone who had the power to throw others out of the congregation, indicating someone 'taking the lead among them.' In the surrounding context, John does not condemn those who tried to do what was right, despite Diotrephes.

In the 2 Corinthians passage, Paul indicates that these "superfine apostles" were teaching things contrary to how Paul understood Christianity. Paul chastises the Corinthians for so easily going along with them.

In contrast to these passages, the Hebrews passage would seem to be dealing with a more general attitude of not wanting to be under any authority at all (at least in the congregation).

With regard to Ps 146:3 ("Do not put your trust in nobles, Nor in the son of earthling man . . .), this is a merism that generally carries the idea of any and all humans, or from the top of society ("nobles") to the bottom ("earthling man" or the common man). Interestingly, the writer (of this Psalm (David) would be speaking of people with whom Israelites would be coming into contact with. For most, that would be fellow Israelites.

Bobcat

WTWizard

Why be submissive when those taking the lead can make a mistake? For instance, suppose they misread something and instruct the whole congregation to do something unnecessary that will create problems, or miss something they should be doing? That might raise the risk of damnation for the whole congregation because they took one bad instruction without questioning.

To avoid it, you should be at least as researched as those taking the lead. If they screw up, you will be able to avoid the problem. Even using independent sources--ultimately, you are responsible for the outcome your actions lead to. Whether it be with regard to investment or making friends, or salvation, you need to cross-reference the advice you are getting. Otherwise, you could blindly follow someone right into taking a bath in your investment, losing friends, or even into damnation.

Terry

The Watchtower Society under J.F. (Judge) Rutherford demonstrated exactly how they feel about the AUTHORITY of Romans 13: 1,2.

Rutherford turned the interpretation inside out.

Simply by declaring the obedience to Authority to be NOT secular authority--it became a JW "fact."

The Governing Body (in this case, Rutherford with his henchman, Fred Franz) over-ruled the Bible and 2,000 years of Christian submission/

obedience to earthly governments.

It was an act of WHIM!

In 1962, Guess what? Governing Body hiccups another WHIM. The inside-out definition is trashed and the OLD understanding becomes

NEW light.

This disrespect for the Authority of scripture is evidence, the GOVERNING BODY is not to be trusted with any interpretations about OBEDIENCE.

They have a proven track record.

They are whim-worshippers without a core of integrity.

berrygerry

Bobcat.

I have often pondered those verses about Diotrophes.

How did he have such authority?

Why did John not arrange for his expulsion?

The Searcher

This was a verse which because of its oppressive tone, prompted me to see how the original Greek compared with the NWT version.

This is how I would have translated it, based on the alternatives offered in the Greek at https://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Heb&c=13&t=KJV#s=t_conc_1146017

"Be persuaded by those going before you, and yield to their admonition".

This softer and more Christian tone, harmonises far greater with Jesus' words about only ONE being the leader and all the apostles being brothers.

Far more appealing, in my view!

leaving_quietly

Yes, what The Searcher said...

Also, this link discusses this in depth: http://www.wickedshepherds.com/ObeyThem.html

Not that it's 100% accurate, but it is interesting, nonetheless.

Fernando

Great question.

What The Searcher said - spot on I believe.

Lead how?

As genuine servant leaders.
No clericalism.
No hierarchy.
No VISIBLE organisation
No coercion
No abuse
Not controlling
Not authoritarian
Not self-centred
Not self-willed

Who lead?

Spiritually mature persons.
Who have been granted the free gift of faith.
Who obey the liberating gospel of grace.
Not legalists
Not moralists
Not religionists
Not materialists
No labels
No titles
No human appointment

Lead where?

To Jesus via the map (5 solas)
Not to "Christless Christianity"
Not to human middlemen (mediators)
Not to self-righteousness via works-righteousness

Christians: Question about, "Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you..."

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