Ultimately we are all called to obey "the truth" of "the Good News", and to disobey religion/ists.
Did Jesus lead people to, or away from, the elders and Governing Body (Matt 23 esp v15)?
Christians: Question about, "Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you..."
by Zoos 15 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
-
-
Zoos
The Searcher and leaving_quietly, thank you for those awesome references. I'll be spending some time reading the Wicked Shepherds article later this evening.
Bobcat - interesting stuff. I never thought about the Diotrephes fiasco. One thing you mentioned...
... the Hebrews passage would seem to be dealing with a more general attitude of not wanting to be under any authority at all (at least in the congregation).
Well, that's a pretty good description of where my mindset is now. I will NEVER allow myself to be lorded over again. So the scripture better mean something else or it will be filed away with "You must accordingly be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect" for consideration in another life.
"Be persuaded by those going before you, and yield to their admonition".
That does make a lot of sense. I imagine we here are as qualified to translate the Greek writings as anyone on the NWT committee. Maybe more so!
-
Splash
The Greek word 'obey' used in Hebrews is different to the one used to "obey your parents".
Hebrews is not an unthinking, blind obedience like the other one is.
Splash
-
Crazyguy
Nice scriptures bobcat ,lets remember that they like rouse the s rupture in Titus about teaching different then what they teach as though they teach the truth. Galatians 1:8-10 Paul explains what should be taught and we all no the jw's don't teach the messiah.
-
Cold Steel
What Paul was saying, I think, is that the saints should be obedient to leaders who are chosen and ordained by God (and both kings and emperors have claimed such appointment). That's not to say that people should put their faith in self-appointed leaders who seek to control others. The central aspect of Christianity is free agency -- that men should have the freedom of choice.
The ancient apostles had authority because they were ordained by Jesus. "For ye have not chosen me," he told them, "but I have chosen you and ordained you." (John 15:16) Those apostles received revelation for the guidance of the people. For example, they counseled the Christians to desert Jerusalem and flee to Pella and other cities to avoid the slaughter that came as a result of the Roman destruction of both the city and the temple. No one was forced to leave, but the instruction came from God, who spoke to his trusted servants.
People like Jim Jones, David Koresch and even more rational claimants like Alexander Campbell, John Calvin and others were never called of God, despite the fact that they believed they had been called of God. Thus the WTBTS freely admits: 1) it is not a church; 2) its leaders are not ordained and have no priesthood; 3) they have received no revelation in the form of angels, theophanies or visible manifestations that would confirm that they were actually called of God; and 4) that they lack the spiritual gifts of the ancient church. Thus, those who put faith in their words are putting their faith in the arm of flesh. It's amazing, but I've heard JWs who say that when God's judgments come, they believe that then the GB will receive the manifestations they need to save them. In the meantime, they should question their leaders' credentials, just to make sure that their leaders will be able to get those revelations if and when the sky falls. They also should ask themselves why, if Jesus had a church, why they're putting their faith and trust in an "organization" whose leaders exercise outrageous dominion over their followers -- telling them what they can and can't read, where they can and can't go in the way of churches, what they can and can't display in their own homes and which possesions are inhabited by demons.
Finally, the NWT managed to screw up what Paul was trying to say. He didn't say, "Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you," which implies that they took the authority unto themselves. He said, "Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account." Only those appointed by God must give account of their stewardships. Those who take the lead on their own volition are assuming authority they don't have, and those following them are putting their faith in the "arm of flesh."
Hebrews 13:17
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you. (KJV)
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit to them: for they watch in behalf of your souls, as they that shall give account; that they may do this with joy, and not with grief: for this were unprofitable for you. (ASV)
Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls and will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with sighing—for that would be harmful to you. (NASV) -
prologos
since the bible was written by the rulers for the ruled, what else would you expect?
"It would say that about itself would'nt i!" comment on " All scripture is inspired----".