JWs and Exclusivity

by Don Schneider 31 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • steve2
    steve2

    You are right Don: Your query would not be well tolerated on a pro-JW forum - or at least your motives would be considered suspect and a "formal" answer would be given with little room for "debate".

    On this forum, as someone else noted, you'll get robust debate - and likely much more and you will need to use your active brain cells to draw a limit if any line of faith you have is crossed. That's not a bad thing for the opposite is even worse: Restricted discussion with lots of rules around what can and cannot be said.

    I appreciated your observation about the church in the first century - with Paul at the helm, it provided a disappointing template for the cult mentality seen in many churches/religious groups in modern times.

    Oh, and welcome.

  • Don Schneider
    Don Schneider

    StarTrek, You are a JW? Incredible. I don’t want to fight yesterday’s battles, so just allow me to say that you don’t fit my perception of a JW. You might read whatever implication into that that you will. However, I rather expect you will discern the one I intend.

    Thank you for the other examples of Biblical texts that might raise similar questions. I shall investigate them for my own edification presently. I noted that I didn’t come here to attack JWs or their doctrines which is why I wrote my original post implying my acceptance of their salient unitarian belief, for example. I wanted to focus on the point I made without being diverted into peripheral issues.

    By the way, I came across the verse from Mark while watching an excellent historical movie about Augustine of Hippo. When he encounters Ambrose, the revered bishop of Milan, Augustine is surprised by some of the bishop’s associations. Ambrose then quotes the scripture from Mark that I cited in my original post.

    If you know Augustine’s story, perhaps you came to the JWs with similar footsteps? (Just a hunch on my part.)

    Thanks again.

    Don

  • Don Schneider
    Don Schneider

    Blues, thank you for your response. The information you provided was exactly what I was requesting. Their answer does not surprise me. The JWs are hardly alone in their assertion that scripture cannot contradict itself which often requires exercises in verbal gymnastics to redress. Thank you for the compliment which is appreciated as well. BTW, the remarks I just made to StarTrek could have been addressed to you as well if you are implying that you are a former JW.

    Thanks again.

  • StarTrekAngel
    StarTrekAngel

    Yes, I am. I am not an elder or MS. I hardly go to field service and in fact, have not done so for the past 3 months. With this you could say that I can not possibly call myself a JW. Point being is that just because I don't do these things, does not mean I have no faith. I simply can not conciously go around preaching these things anymore. I am in the fading phase and I know it is a matter of time before I get a visit from the elders. Many in my cong have approached me to encourage me to take in more responsibility but I just could not bring myself to it due to my own crisis of concious. Off course, given that I have family still in, I need to play the part because I don't want to create trouble. I have small kids too. I have brought this up to my wife and she is very open minded but this needs to be taken slowly. My approach has not been to convince her that we need out, but rather that we need to be selective on how we dedicate ourselves to this org. We have not supported the org or KW financially for the past year or more. In more than 12 years of being a member I have not signed my "no blood card" and neither have she.

  • StarTrekAngel
    StarTrekAngel

    Spot on Blues! I don't remember having studied this book but we have others. This does not contradict my point. While they may have an actual explanation for everything, some of these subject are rather avoided and seldomly studied. None of these get the same attention as the issues with apostasy, donations, field service, etc ,etc. So people tend to forget and they rather have it this way.

  • Don Schneider
    Don Schneider

    Steve, yes, but the template seems to work. Assuming Paul’s perception of Christianity was correct...then the ends justify the means?

  • Apognophos
    Apognophos

    Interesting thread. Welcome, Don. I and a number of others here are in fact active Witnesses, which is to be contrasted with believing Witnesses. Our actual beliefs range from "the Society has most things right" to "total atheist".

    I suppose the Society's explanation of Jesus' words makes sense, as long as one accepts that Jesus would make a statement that was very temporally limited: 'Whoever is not against us is for us... until such time as the first Christian congregation is established. Then whoever is not for us is against us.'

  • StarTrekAngel
    StarTrekAngel

    Yeap! It would be unthinkable in any case, that Jesus would make such short lived statements. When many Christian denominations limit themselves to abide the new testament only, then we could just go ahead as JWs by simply referring to the letters section of the bible. Not far from what we do today.

  • OneEyedJoe
    OneEyedJoe

    I'll throw in my $.02 in (which is probably grossly overvalued).

    First off, thanks for the scripture. In my 30 years as a JW, I can't recall Mark 9:40 ever being read at the meetings. Interestingly enough, though, Mark 9:42 is one of the favorite scriptures of JWs to use, as that scripture is handy when you need to beat the flock into obeying non-scriptural counsel (obviously only individual members can stumble someone, the leadership never can!)

    Given the context as you stated it, Mark 9:40 is also interesting to contrast with Matt. 7:22-23 (which is probably one of the top 5 verses cited in JW meetings).

    As for the observation that the christian teachings (as set forth mostly by Paul) seem to set the framework for a cult, I think it is probably not coincidental. The bible itself acknowledges that there were a number of different versions of christianity in the first century (2 John 10) so it shouldn't be surprising to learn that the one that developed traits that made it more successful at self replicating (i.e. recruiting new members and retention of current members and their children) would be the one to win out and eventually become the dominant form. This eventual dominant form of christianity then had sufficient control to form the official bible from the "inspired writings" that backed their particular flavor of the fledgling religion.

    The concept of exclusivity is certainly one that lends itself to retention of adherents, and to a certain extent, recruitment as well. The factor in play is similar to Pascal's wager - if you're a member of religion A that teaches that all religions are a viable path to god, but there's another religion B that teaches that only people who are adherents of religion B can obtain salvation, the only logical course of action would be to switch from A to B. As an adherent to religion B, you can obtain salvation if the doctrine of A is correct, or if the doctrine of B is correct. As an adherent of religion A, you'd better be right or else you're going to be left out when the adherents of B are saved.

    Of course things get complicated when you have several thousand religions fitting into each category, at which point you'd better hope that your specific denomination isn't the determining factor in your salvation, because the chances of you picking the right one are vanishingly small when you only get one chance.

  • Don Schneider
    Don Schneider

    OneEyed,

    Having stumbled upon this forum has been a metaphorical eye-opener for me! You’ve been a JW for thirty years and you’re familiar with Pascal’s Wager? The JW in my personal life whom I referred to I couldn’t get to read a children’s illustrated book of great philosophers. Where do you people come from? How did you get to be JWs?

    By the way, I agree with your assessment as to the reason for the ultimate success of Paul’s view of Christianity.

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