OEJ, myself, and many others here are born-ins. We didn't particularly ask to be born into it and are trying to claw our way out. However, this forum has a non-representative fraction of ex-JWs and "conscious class" JWs. Many ex-JWs still think it's the truth or might be the truth. The ones who are here are largely the ones who, active JWs or not, were unafraid of contrary information and tended to think for themselves a bit more. That being said, many of us believed it was the truth until we were well into adulthood.
JWs and Exclusivity
by Don Schneider 31 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Don Schneider
Thank you, Apognophos.
“I suppose the Society's explanation of Jesus' words makes sense, as long as one accepts that Jesus would make a statement that was very temporally limited: 'Whoever is not against us is for us... until such time as the first Christian congregation is established. Then whoever is not for us is against us.'"
LOL!
Best,
Don
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StarTrekAngel
Some of us were not born in and I still wonder how did I let them catch me. I also know of other very broad-minded people that fell for it. The problem with broad-minded people and those who seem "too smart to fall for this" is that we do not consider ourselves to be above anyone else. We understand that there is always something we don't know and we are willing to entertain the possibillity. In this case the problem was that we were presented with "the truth" before we knew "the truth about the truth". It was just a matter of timing.
Have you ever read the story "The last answer"? I recommend it. Two things are evident there. How a scientist can continue to question his intelligence, despite having numerous achievements and how the concept of "a God" can become something no scientifical theory can prove or disprove.
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Don Schneider
Apognopho,
“OEJ, myself, and many others here are born-ins. We didn't particularly ask to be born into it and are trying to claw our way out. However, this forum has a non-representative fraction of ex-JWs and "conscious class" JWs. Many ex-JWs still think it's the truth or might be the truth. The ones who are here are largely the ones who, active JWs or not, were unafraid of contrary information and tended to think for themselves a bit more. That being said, many of us believed it was the truth until we were well into adulthood."
Those born into any religion are an entirely different kettle of fish than converts. There is no such thing as a twelve-year-old heretic. Children’s minds are born tabula rasa and malleable which is why, for example, learning one’s native language is so much easier than picking up a second one. I believed in the tenets of the religion that I was born and indoctrinated into without reservation into my young adulthood as well. Indeed, it never would have even occurred to me to question them. There was, I confess, a comforting sense of reassurance in such certainty, even if it turns out to have been a fool’s one, that I have never experienced since.
It is not the obvious high degree of intelligence of many I have already encountered here that surprises me as much as that of their erudition. It was not my perception that those raised within fundamentalist type mind control cults had either the opportunity or the inclination to pursue higher degrees of education (either formally or informally via reading), especially in more esoteric areas. I know that the JW governing body discourages such for utilitarian and understandable reasons (from their perspective).
But as I said, I went through my period of anguish regarding someone very close to me becoming a JW long ago and at this point it is useless to attempt to fight yesterday’s lost battles anew. I’m significantly older myself and don’t feel comfortable contributing toward sowing doubts within others, especially regarding a religion I was never affiliated with. I have read both Eastern and Western religious and metaphysical thought for decades, as well as scientific literature, and still feel no more certain of truth than when I began. So who am I to scoff at the beliefs of others, especially when the potential stakes are so alarmingly high? I too have read Mark 9:42 and no amount of intellectual thought can totally dispel the apprehension it engenders within the psyche of one raised Christian, especially as one ages.
Although I can state with certainty of conviction that I could never accept certain tenets of the Jehovah’s Witnesses that strike me as absurd, I can also say that I can’t dismiss the faith’s basic paradigm in good conscience merely because it seems simplistic. Augustine traveled much the same path and ultimately contented himself with producing as high a level of theological musings as was possible within the early Church, still somewhat anti-intellectual in tenor.
In that light, I think it best if I bow out of here, leaving you to discuss amongst yourselves that which has had such a profound personal impact on your lives and in many cases continues to do so. I can’t do so, however, without thanking everyone for your welcoming comments and most helpful input. I hope you all capture the peace of mind for which we all yearn. Indeed, from the moment of conception, the Sword of Damocles hovers precariously above us all. That is both the trap of religion…and its salve.
Best regards to all,
Don Schneider
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humbled
Hello, Don1
A great scripture--one that was never referenced in the 22 years I was a JW.
The (N) NWT bible the JWs use is stuffed with cross-references that are meant to bind us irrevocably to "the Truth". But clearly that was a problem scrpture. So they chose to supply antidotes to this very inclusive verse.
WTS gives Mark 9:40 cross references to a couple of verses that shape-shift the matter of inclusiveness. Both Mt. 12:30 and Lu. 11:23 say this: "He that is not on my side is against me, and he that does not gather with me scatters." The context has no bearing on the subject that triggered the topic in Mark
This is where the WTS jumps the subject inherent in the original story in Mark 9 which makes clear that the MAN WHO IS NOT WALKING WITH THE "IN" GROUP OF JESUS IS JUST FINE--
So the WTS then makes a cross reference from Lu. 11:23--a verse has no relevance to Mark's point-- to John 11:52. You find yourself dumped in a slag heap that can only mean that you must have arrived at the door of ( Ta-ta!) The Anointed! " and not for the nation only, but in order that the children of God who are scattered about might also be gathered together in one."
The cross-references from John 11 fan out into the epistles. There, once again you can relax again in more verses that encourage universal brotherhood in Jesus--but only after the ever vigilant WTS has navigated you past those treacherous currents of real, genuine inclusiveness.
It is a cult.
l
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Don Schneider
StarTrek, it would be rude to leave without answering your question; thus, I’ve been a huge Asimov fan since I was a kid. In fact, I even mentioned this in a thinly-veiled personal memoir, an online soft SF short story, entitled “Pride’s Prison” that I wrote. Once again, I agree with your assessment.
I tend to lean towards mysticism. If God exists, then His presence can only be known on an empirical basis. After all, one doesn’t learn to ride a bike by studying the aerodynamic principles of the proposition beforehand. Rather, one gets on, falls, tries again and eventually understands. Much of what Jesus was reported to have taught sounds more like Eastern metaphysical thought to me than that of his native Judaism. Like Augustine, I hunger for knowledge, not belief. Like Augustine, that perhaps is my failing.
Thanks again for your valued input and best wishes to you.
Don
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Apognophos
Well, it was nice to meet you Don; I kind of wish you'd stick around, but I know you really wanted to find a forum with believing JWs, and there's only a handful here. I understand your reluctance to try to dash someone's faith to pieces, as well as the admonition in Mark (we actually did consider that scripture many many times as Witnesses; I'm surprised humbled doesn't share that memory). The fact is, what doesn't work for one person may work for another. The religion meets some needs of some people. More importantly, hardly any JWs (or, in fact, human beings) are open-minded enough to reconsider their worldview based upon a challenge from another person. Cue the old saying about leading a horse to water.
On the subject of anyone's erudition, I'll just say that some of us have been educating ourselves feverishly to make up for lost time since learning TTATT and being freed from our mental prisons. I've learned a great deal of fascinating info about the Bible in the last couple years which is kept from the Witnesses. However, as I said, we are a non-representative bunch. Some of us just happen to be introverted bookworms, and so we naturally read lots of science and SF and this broadened our horizons even while we were still true believers.
Having a love of reading is something that doesn't seem common among JWs; interestingly, in my case it did not carry over to the Society's literature, in which I could hardly muster enough interest to glance over. I wanted things that stimulated me intellectually, and for the most part this was absent from the literature, though I admit a fondness for the much-maligned Revelation book as well as the Greatest Man book, which even many embittered ex-JWs have to admit they like because it stands apart from the majority of the literature by focusing on Jesus' life and the actual Bible passages that relate it, without much eisegetical nonsense (unlike the Revelation book, *cough*).
Anyway, as an avid SF reader, it's funny to hear someone bring up "The Last Answer", as I made a thread about that here a while back to bring it to the attention of a few more people. It's frighteningly thought-provoking.
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Crazyguy
I have to agree with Startrek in that most JW's don't know this scripture even exists. I'm still technically in good standing and when i was bring up scriptures like these when meeting with the elders they eyes would light up as if deer in the headlights then move quickly to another scripture. I did not even know about this scripture until I was awakening from the cult. There is a whole bunch of scriptures the JW's avoid like the plague. One good example is Luke chapter 12 where Jesus is discussing the Faithful and discreet slave and Peter stops and asks if this Parable is just for Us?? These scriptures are never mentioned!!
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Apognophos
Apologies, I had a feeling I must have been misunderstanding someone or something. humbled was probably referring to Mark 9:40 not being used by JWs, which is definitely true. I was referring to Mark 9:42 as the scripture which was considered "many many times". Not sure how I managed to get mixed up on that.
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Emery
As Apognophos has said, no one scripture or argument will wake up a JW. A great many are in for emotional reasons, not logical or theologically sound ones. I've helped several local JWs leave the organization and what i've found is that, a surprising amount end up not really caring about the theological side of things. Their main reasons for leaving always seem to revolve around the social injustices or the hypocritical atmosphere found within their kingdom halls. IMHO, this was a waking call for how petty the reasons can be for people to remain in. JWs put up with a lot of crap and risk their lives by adhereing to such dangerous doctrines (blood doctrine), all for a handful of conditional friends. Family aside, there really isn't any good reason to remain or sacrifice your time in this cult. In the end, it's an uphill battle that needs to be fought on a social level, not a theological one.