Despicable crazy people

by jgnat 32 Replies latest social current

• 

  humbled

  Simon,

  Rather than what you wrote above, you said:" ...this is your latest lame attempt..." Can't it sting a bit when one's efforts at discussion are cast in such a manner? It denigrates allJgnat's points as lame. That's kinda rough. And, even out-spoken you might concede that.

  But back to the topic.

  We need to grab the opportunity for discussing something in Jgnat's opening remarks:

  I think the issue is with poor identification and treatment of mental illness in this country.

  We do often close the barn door after the horses have already left inthat regard. When there is a violent current trending within a group, who will call it out?

  If we within a community are very clear and vocal about what is a healthy and good standard of behavior that will help.

  A little girl said it: Education.

  edited:Isn't education a weak point for many women in Muslim countries where violence is common? Any hard facts on this?
• 

  Simon

  I said 'latest' as variations of the same thing had been repeated on multiple topics all the while ignoring what was actually being said. This to me seemed a poor attempt to excuse a specific act of islamic-inspired barbarity by trying to classify it as simply the result of mental illness (I'm sure greatly appreciated by all families of those genuinely suffering from that).

  Yes, education is key. But before education can work you need to be open to ideas and learning - that means a dogmatic belief in a single source of truth as written in a holy book has to be ended.

  I believe that is what moderate muslims do - they don't 'believe' and stick to the quran, they know it's simply a book of traditions in the same way that christians don't really believe noah put all the animals in an ark other than the real fundie ones. They know that it isn't the be-all and end-all of learning or the basis for modern society and laws.

  Until muslims are allowed to openly question the beliefs and teachings and be critical of them then it's unlikely much will change.

  I have little hope that muslims will be able to question things though if non-muslims object so strongly to non-muslims questioning them! This is where the PC brigade are not actually helping - something that mulsim reformists say. They don't want batman or the phoney claims of racism as that simply means that they have no support anywhere.

  I wish people would stop treating it as though it's a competition to decide which religion has done the most harm in all of history or what percentage of muslims fully support which specific aspects of sharia law.

  I think the basics are undisputable: islamic ideology is the basis for many harsh regimes that cause harm to many people without them having a choice.

  Apparently, to some, that is an outrageous thing to say. I think it's stating the bleedin' obvious.
• 

  humbled

  Agreed,I don't think that isolated mental illness within the muslim community is what gives rise to Isis. It does seem to me that entire communities do become mentally ill, however. What else is it when the Quran allows for forgiveness of an adultery, there is no mercy. Only consistent killing. When there can be forgiveness there are beheadings. These are community mental health problems.

  The OT Jews had it no different than the most blighted of these Islamic societies.

  I wonder, though, if change will come about without the good and kind and brave--maybe the educated, too--step out as did the Indians to the British Occupiers as did the Black and the whites for civil rights face racist local communities and governments. Yes, step out NOT when it is safe. the child Malala did.

  Jews might have chosen mercy in the times told of in the questionable bible. But with or without the account being a fact--the woman taken in adultery could be a tale told in the muslim community-- No? Who will stand to say --allow for mercy? The holy writings of both allow for it--if people aren't collectively cowards or else collectively mentally ill.

  Point is this--can a community be brave enough to heal itself? Their own books holds the key--Education is in a lot of books. Including some of their holy writings.
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  Simon

  From the original post: "those mentally ill people while in the throes of their delusions who are driven to kill"

  I'm sure jgnat would disagree but I think it's a good description of anyone who kills because of a religious belief.

  Step back and think about it: someone kills a woman or child because something in an ancient book said they should. How crazy is that?

  Is religious belief a mental illness? How does it differ from someone believing they are being controlled and told to kill ...wait, which ones am I talking about - the devoutly religious or the dengerously mentally ill?
• 

  humbled

  The example of the Oklahoma fellow Nolen doesn't work as an example of the devoutly religious cutting off heads of un-believers. He was arrested before for assaulting a policeman for not having proper lights on his car, arrested later for cocaine use and intent to sell. converted to islam in prison. He read the quran there? who knows. He is said to have hated white people and been fascinated with beheadings in the news. Probably mental.

  All the rest as in that link to the woman stoned to death--yes religiously mentally ill and uninformed--Christianity was like that for centuries too--the rack and burning at the stake and the murder of christian sects. Took some brave souls to go against that tide.

  Bartolame de las Casas, you brought him up yourself, Simon--went against the tide. And Columbus was a Christian, too. He went with the haters.

  Education and humanity can overthrow the darkness... Communities can be the places we learn to be sick.(edited: We have to make them where you can get well. too.)

  checking out for now, good night.
• 

  kaik

  Jgnat, I have not said every family with mentally ill member, nor wanted to generalize. However, family can be crucial for getting mentally ill person treated before something bad happens and than these individuals became responsibility of the state. In the case of Olga Hepnárová that killed 8 people, her family failed the role. They were in denial that something was wrong and did not let her daughter to get institutionalized permanently. Olga was in her teen when she attempted murder, and was 22 when she went on killing spree. She was hang in 1975.
• 

  LoveUniHateExams

  'It does seem to me that entire communities do become mentally ill, however.' - please provide evidence supporting this statement.

  I'm not sure how change will come about. I have read about acts of kindness from moderate sunnis in the Syria/Iraq conflict. Some kind people helped escaped yazidi slaves by hiding them away from ISIS, helping them reach their relatives in Kurdistan or Turkey.

  Some activists in Ar-Raqqa are documenting human rights abuses but I'd imagine their life expectancy is about the same as an icecube in an oven.
• 

  humbled

  Luhe,

  The mental illness of an entire community comes about through the enforcement of social practices. Of all people, ex-JWs should know this without having any other expert testimony.

  Shunning that is required by that community has varied effects that this forum has documented for years. The "two witness rule" has been shown to protect the sexual predators and effectively "honor kills" the victims. The elevation of a small group of men as the ultimate arbiters of our spiritual life results in the destruction of our ability to reason and act with any authenticity. Fear =mental illness

  Where female genital mutilation is practiced--this is an enforced social practice that reuires a kind of group complicity to support it. Is it healthy just because everyone does it? Fear forces everyone in the community to go along with it even if they think it is wrong. This creates a sick society.

  It is only recently that some of the richest oil countries have come into the modern era. These lands and peoples are largely Muslim-right? If we listen to some of the voices of Muslim people (women especially) we hear them say that some of the practices are very much rooted in old tribal social practice--some of the very disturbing practices we read of in the OT. Bloody, mysogynistic, patriarchal, exclusive. Fear=mental illness

  It has been pointed out by other posters in these thread on Islam that the problem with Islam is that you cannot leave it without being killed. Yet in the places where human rights have an established value, Muslims who are faithful and informed live with happily with non-muslims.

  It looks to me that Islam has only recently come forward from the Old Testament grounds. I do not need to repeat the views we on this board have of this period of human history: these social practices that may have been common for that time and place produce negative values on human lives and human rights--mental illness-- in the communities we want today.
• 

  DesirousOfChange

  islam appeals to and attracts more mentally ill than other groups

  Even JWs?

  Doc
• 

  silent

  What sets me off is when I see certain numbers like 666, 1914, 144,000, 24:14, 28:19,20, mighty numbers like 70 and 80 especially when pertaining to years, 607, 70CE, and things of that sort.