The Mosaic Law (Is it still Valid)

by objectivetruth 30 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  objectivetruth

  Humbled - No I do not rely on "Lawlessness" to support my View.

  My Point in using this scripture is that Peter said that Paul is hard to understand.. And people make mistakes because of this..

  If the Scriptures would have ended with Jesus life.. No one would argue that "Jesus abolished The Law". Jesus never said or did anything that would make someone believe that he was the end of the Law..

  it was Paul's writings that Influenced Christians to eveneurally abandon The Mosaic Law. With this in mind one should weigh Jesus Statements against Pauls (Sometimes confusing) statements and decide personally based on who's words they Trust more. (John 14:23-24)

  An Example Pauls confusing statements is 1 Cor 8:4 " Therefore, as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know that “an idol has no real existence,” and that “there is no God but one.” AND Verse 8 " Food will not commend us to God. We are no worse off if we do not eat, and no better off if we do."

  it appears from these writings that Paul is stating that it is no big deal, to eat Foods Sacrificed to Idols. Later the Apostles state that it is STILL Wrong to eat food sacrificed to Idols. " that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols" (Acts 15:29)

  in Recelation it speaks poorly of individuals that eat food sacrificed to Idols.. Revelation 2:20 " Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophet. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols."

  Who to listen to and trust is the question...
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  humbled

  Then what of the laws regarding women and their uncleaness after childbirth--40 days impure after a girl and something like half that for boys. and all the that about leaving the gleanings for the poor and levirite marriage? What is the limit? Stoning?
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  Wonderment

  The Jewish system with its laws were "a shadow of things to come," since the reality was Jesus Christ.

  The new Christian Law opened the way for Gentiles to join Christianity. The wall between both groups came down. Many of the Judaic laws do not apply any longer. Do we still have to offer animal sacrifices? Do we have a "High Priest" other than Christ? Is there a physical temple to limit Christian worship to one locality? No!

  Under Christian Law, the mosaic laws do not apply , but obviously some of the principles of the old system carry over to the new. Scriptures can guide us as to which principles are still valid, and which are not. The new arrangement is simpler, but requires greater conscience responsiblity from the individual than the old setup ever did, a principle expressed in Romans. Interestingly, some of the Bible books (Galatians; Hebrews) were written to warn others from falling back to the old system, which would negate Christ's sacrifice and its superiority over it.
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  Doug Mason

  The Matthew Gospel, which you refer to at point#1, was written by Jewish Christians. These were aligned with Jerusalem (James, Peter, John). They were very much in support of imposing the Jewish laws on to the Gentile Christians.

  Paul, however, who was based at Antioch and had very little to do with Jerusalem, said that his Gentile converts had no need to obey the Jewish laws. Consider Galatians chapters 1 and 2 as well as 1 Corinthians, where they were told not to ask where the meat came from. The Jewish Christians did not know Paul by face, only by reputation.

  The book of Acts, written by a person/group aligned with Peter (and hence Jerusalem) wished to make it appear that harmony existed between the two camps, papering over the chasm between Antioch and Jerusalem. The Book of Acts is religious reconstructed history and is not relied on by Bible scholars as being a reliable account.

  FYI: 1 Peter and 2 Peter are accepted as having been written by an adherent of Paul's; the latter having been written about 150 CE, about 90 years after the deaths of Paul and Peter.

  "A text without a context is a pretext for a proof text", and the context is not only grammatical but also that of contemporary culture, idioms, politics (religious and secular) and so on. The other matter is to understand how the bible came to be assembled, by whom, and when.

  I suggest that at Matthew 22:29, the writers were putting words into Jesus' mouth against their Gentile brethren.

  Doug
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  objectivetruth

  Humbled - Regarding portions of the law that are Unjust / Immoral / Unloving, we have to examine Jesus example. Breaking the Mosaic law would have been sin, during the life of Jesus.. But we know that Jesus did not Sin " He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth." 1 Peter 2:22

  He did not sin, however he did break portions of the Mosaic Law.. This is not a contradiction, rather this was a part of his Purpose. Some examples of Jesus breaking The Mosaic law, while not sinning..

  Matthew 12:1 " At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry, and they began to pluck heads of grain and to eat." Centuries earlier, a Man it is said that a ,an was stoned to death, for simply picking up sticks on the sabbath " The man shall be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.” Numbers 15:35 .. So what gives? Mark 2:27 " And he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath." - Men added to the Sabbath restrictions, and they added Harsh and Unjust penalties for breaking iThem..

  This was not the intent of God, when he commanded Sabbath Adherence.. By Jesus breaking the "man made" extra restrictions of the sabbath, he showed his followers what proper sabbath keeping is. (Enjoyable,Holy and Relaxing)

  It was a command according to the Mosaic Law to stone certain sinners.. Jesus had an Oppurtunity to Follow this "rule" and stone an adulterous woman but he chose not to follow, and by doing so he showed that this command was not commanded by his father. John 8:7 " And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, “Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.”

  There are many more examples.. But in short, All of the Laws found in the Mosaic Law, and the Torah (First 5 books of Bible) were not given By God.. They were additions made by men, trying to figure out how to run a society. Jesus Fulfilled the law, and set matters straight on what is the law and what is not..

  Jeremiah 8:8 shows that this is a fact.. " “How can you say, ‘We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us’? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes has made it into a lie."
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  designs

  It only ever applied to Jews. A modern Jew can choose to practice the old Faith or not, just like any other person can choose to be religious.
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  cofty

  Excellent thread.

  I agree with everything in your OP. The caveat is that the compromise reached at the Jerusalem council was that gentile christians did not need to keep the Law in order to have fellowship with Jewish chrisitans.

  Iodaltry, fornication and blood were the restrictons put on "alien residents".

  It is a common misunderstanding of modern christians. Jesus and his Jewish disciples were practising Jews until the day thet died. They were thrown out the synagogues, they did not leave of their own accord.

  Thank you for a brilliant OP.
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  objectivetruth

  Thank you for your words, Cofty I really appreciate that coming from you.
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  humbled

  It has been said of me that I cherry-pick scriptures. But in instances such as this discussion--throwing aside the dogma, the theological overlays--I find that there is this:

  As you two, OT and cofty, remind us the Jesus followers were not impeded by having to follow the Law of Moses if they were non-jews. It seems to have been immaterial then?

  If the material teachings were indeed Love, Peace, Pacificism (needs discussion), Forgiveness, Humility, Tolerance, then I am still a christian even if I despise and do not believe the tripe from the churches?
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  objectivetruth

  Wonderment - I agree, with much of what you say.

  I feel differently on a few points. You said "Many of the Judaic laws do not apply now" I agree, however this is not because Christ replaced them with something else, Rather, he erased them because they Never Applied in the first place, and they were never Commanded by God. No one ever had to Sacrifice Animals, this was a man made tradition, which was corrupt in many ways.

  Jeremiah 7:22 "For in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, I did not speak to your fathers or command them concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices."

  Psalm 40:6 "Sacrifice and offering you did not desire-- but my ears you have opened -- burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not require."

  Hosea 6:6 "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings."

  The Temple arrangment was not required or necessary either..

  Isaiah 66:1 "This is what the LORD says: "Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool. Where is the house you will build for me? Where will my resting place be?"

  John 4:20 "Our ancestors worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem."

  Jeremiah 7:4 "Do not trust in these deceptive words: ‘This is the temple of the LORD, the temple of the LORD, the temple of the LORD."

  You said that Principles of the Old system carry over to the New.. I agree, please give me your opinion on one of these principles.

  God requires that we be kind and compassionate to animals. - "And the angel of the LORD said to him, “Why have you struck your donkey these three times? Behold, I have come out to oppose you because your way is perverse before me." Num 22:32

  "Whoever is righteous has regard for the life of his beast, but the mercy of the wicked is cruel." Proverbs 12:10

  If you were to come upon a Man torturing a Cow, only to Slaughter it ruthlessly and without care for its suffering, would you proceed to Reward that Man, and Buy the Meat of the Cow and eat it? Would you continue to pay for that beef, knowing that more Animals Undergo unmentionable pain and suffering, for the satisfaction of your belly?

  If you do not follow the Dietary Laws of the Mosaic Law, this is Exactly what you are doing.