John Chapter 3. How does it jive with JWs?

FetterFree Annie

Hello everyone! Can anyone answer a SERIOUS question? Since JWs set so much store by Bible Study etc., I was wondering how they explain away John Chapter 3. Specifically where Jesus tells Nicodemus you have to be born again by the Spirit of God in order to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. While I'm here I would also like to know about Eph 2:5,6. It seems to me they work like Trojans in order to attain a place in paradise- but this verse clearly states we are saved by God's grace and not our works.

ItsJustlittleoldme

Very good question.. I'd love to hear both the apostate AND the current JW views on these passages...

funkyderek

While I'm here I would also like to know about Eph 2:5,6. It seems to me they work like Trojans in order to attain a place in paradise- but this verse clearly states we are saved by God's grace and not our works.

But James 2:14-19 says differently. Works are necessary for salvation. The mistake JWs - and most Christians - make is in believing that the collection of books known as the bible have a consistent, coherent message.

--
But if you pray all your sins are hooked upon the sky
Pray and the heathen lie will disappear
Prayers they hide the saddest view
(Believing the strangest things, loving the alien)
-- David Bowie, Loving The Alien

dungbeetle

I think they claim there are two covenenats, one directly with the 144,000 which that scripute applies to; and the other is a coveneat with all mankind, which they SAY Jesus was speaking of to the thief when they were dying on the cross together.

There's a big thread on this board somewhere regarding this; something about Jesus not mediator for all mankind. Somegood comments on there.

BEFORE YOU TRY AND REMOVE THE STICK FROM MY ARSE, REMOVE THE TELEPHONE POLE FROM YOUR OWN ARSE.

Valis

Sorry..posted in wrong forum..please excuse.

FetterFree Annie

funkyderek, I'd like to respond to your caustic comments on the bible and James Chapter 2.

James says 'faith, if it has not works, is dead'. What does he mean by this?

Here we must address some of the most controversial passages in the New Testament. James starts off, 'My Brothers, what use is it if a man claims faith and has no deeds to show?' His logic is clear and unyielding. He goes on to say, 'If a brother or sister has nothing to wear, and if they have not enough for their daily food, and you say to them, Go in Peace. Be warm and be fed, and then do not give them the essentials for bodily existence, what use is that?' To clinch his argument he states, 'So, if faith too has no deeds to show, by itself it is dead!'
It was for this passage that Martin Luther, when he was compiling and translating the Bible, nearly decided that James should not be included. So, is James correct? Is faith alone not enough to save our souls?
James points out in verse 19, 'Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.' He is saying that even demons know there is a God, this does not save them from eternal damnation, for in spite of their knowledge they still are evil and commit evil actions.

We accept the Bible as Truth. Indeed, here James gives us the truth. For we can understand that any person who believes in Christ, any person who has accepted the Rule of God, must act, must be a doer of good deeds. His faith will compel him to do so. Just as our mind moves the limbs of our body, our faith moves us to do good.
W. J. Rayment,

Do we find the JW out feeding the hungry and comforting the sick etc? Or do their works consist only of recruiting lost and lonely people into their 'kingdom'?

Apostolicpreacherman

Just a reply... There is something that needs to be understood in John chapter 3. When Jesus was talking to Nicodemus about being born again, He said that you must be born again of the water and the Spirit. Cross reference that with Acts 2:38, on the day of pentecost, Peter was preaching to the people. Finally, when the people understood what Peter was preaching, they asked "what must we do to be saved?" Peter replied, "Repent, and be baptezed every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." Repentance is what John the baptist preached on; get people ready for the coming of the Messiah, Jesus Christ. Baptism of the water is the baptism in the name of Jesus for the washing away of sins. Then comes the best part. Along with Johns repentance message, he said that the one to come after him (refering to Jesus) will bapize with the Holy Ghost. When Jesus said that you should be born of the Spirit, that is the Holy Ghost baptism, which follows with the evidence of speaking in other tongues as the Spirit gives utterance!

Bang

what use is it if a man claims faith and has no deeds to show?' His logic is clear and unyielding

Yep.
The works validate that the faith is real, no works-no faith.

However, works do not necessarily mean that one has faith.
It doesn't necessarily follow that works mean faith - only that works validate faith. It is faith that saves us, the works are the sign of the faith.

Bang

Bang

Further,
The works that are not from faith, but from the context of earning, don't taste so good - being tainted with pride.
you will know them by their fruit - it's a taste test.

We can tell without actually tasting sometimes after knowing a bit about the tree - who tended to it, etc., but the best way is taste.

Trees can have no fruit, good fruit or bad fruit - and the taste test tells us about the tree. 'Good looking tree' does not necessarily mean 'good fruit', even if it's an indicator - and an odd looking tree can produce very nice (humble) fruit, rooted in good soil.

I'm sure that people who post here have tasted some sour fruit.

Bang

Adonai438

As I was leaving the WT after reading the Bible for me-self (VERY Taboo!) I asked the same questions.
Their answers?
John 3 is only for the 144000. To them it is also not really an indwelling of the Holy Spirit like Paul teaches as they don't believe the Holy Spirit to be an actual person/personage. Therefore it's more of God's actions showing up in your life.
Oh, and lets not forget that those Christians that believe they are born-again and inwelt by the Holy Spirit are really demon posessed so you'd better stay away from them.
Ephesians 2 they just rationalize by saying God can't really be saying what he's saying. I mean God can't really be saying faith without works saves because jws are so perfect that God must really be pleased with them more than anyone else. Sound cynical? Their Pride makes them have a control complex on salvation- if they can't work for it then they can't control who gets it and who doesn't. You know what proverbs says about Pride cometh befor the fall!

As regards to James- It doesn't say works makes faith thus salvation, it is saying faith makes works and shows that we are saved. If you don't see love and good works then is there any faith? Maybe not and that needs to be examined by the person.

RE: Tongues equaling baptism in the Spirit. I believe in the Holy Spirit and being born-again and the gifts of the spirit etc....
It's all biblical and I have experienced it. BUT:
The Bible is rather clear on the extremes to those teachings:
It Says 2 specific things:
#1--- Do not Forbid the Speaking in Tongues:1 Corinthians 14:39

#2--- Not every Christian has the same gifts of the spirit and not
everyone is inspired with Tongues:
1 Corinthians 12-14
12:4-11-----different Gifts, One Spirit
12:27-30----each of us has a part in Gods church, lists Gods
appointments and lists tongues last. Not less important but not
obviously not something everyone does. Then retorical list of
questions Do all speak in tongues? Eagerly desire the greater
gifts.
14:1-5------Prophecy is greater than tongues- how can this be
if tongues is an automatic salvation indicator? If one is
desiring gifts, desire the ones that build up the church (vs12)

Basicly, Tongues is a gift of the Holy Spirit but taking the extreme either way is unbiblical and divides Gods people unnecisarily. Being Born-again is your salvation- trusting God alone.

Interesting topics Fetter-free Annie Write me sometime at my email It's open to use <>< God bless, Angie

John Chapter 3. How does it jive with JWs?

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