Prayer - The ultimate act of stupidity (page 3)

Doltologist

Millie

Yes, we are trying to learn together.

Thanks for reminding me.

millie210

Doltologista minute agoAll
Should I apologise for this thread descending into a them v's us fest?
No, I believe not. However, I'm willing to discuss it.
IMHO, this sort of dialogue is long overdue. I and others like me have tried to have a dialogue with religious folk on their forums but, no matter how polite we are, once they realise we are atheists, we get kicked off and receive a life time ban. This forum, bless it, is one of the few that will allow discourse between believers and non-believers to take place.
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I can only speak for one person but I dont think you should delete it.

You come across in the above post as both honest and real.

I didnt know you had been treated so disrespectfully on other forums. Im sorry that happened to you.

And I agree with you on this forum being wonderful to allow discussion.

Discussion seems to be the word that is hard to define.

When people feel belittled or even worse - afraid to express an honest thought - is there really any discussion?

At that point it is just the "preachers" (there are atheist preachers here) ranting on about how right they are and everyone who could learn anything quietly leaves the thread in disgust and the only people the preacher has left is the choir.

I am not angry at atheists or JWs. What I am is sensitive. I have a layer of skin missing due to my experiences at the hands of the loving JWs (sarcasm intended)

I am NOT looking for more of the same and I dont care if it is an atheist OR a a person who believes in a God or a religion.

Hold Me-Thrill Me

New atheism is of course nothing new. What may be "new" is the vitriol and borderline hatred that is expressed and encouraged by people like Richard Dawkins and others.

On another thread the opinion was expressed that religious people should be put in institutions for rehabilitation and their children taken away. Now, this is surely an extreme position (with good and decent motives) but it does not arise in a vacuum. It is the extreme of a tide already present in our society.

There are times when extremes become the accepted position of the majority. Fear and economic depression may cause the majority to jump on any band wagon that offers relief...even the oppression of people who have nothing to do with the problems at hand.

Prayer is a religious act. People are free to ridicule prayer. The religious are free to continue to pray. It must remain this way if we are to have a free society where each individual is free to believe or not believe. The majority must be willing to support freedom of religion otherwise what other freedoms will be at risk once that freedom is taken away?

So much for the political point of view.

-----The topic is the stupidity of prayer.-----

I can see where it may seem that way to those who do not believe.

If God exists then prayer is an attempt to communicate with a power, an intelligence, greater than ourselves.

SETI is attempting to communicate with advanced intelligent life somewhere in the universe. NASA has sent out our address and other information about us into space. Yet, they have never spoken to, or visibly seen, intelligent alien life. But no matter, they feel it must be out there and so the search continues.

There are some who believe in the possibility of parallel universes. Others believe that traveling at the speed of light can effect time itself. They are respected scientists who command the respect of many though no one has seen, or been in touch with, a parallel universe or has traveled as fast as light to check out the effects for themselves. But they trust their calculations and "see" though they do not see.

But when it comes to a search for God- an intelligent life which is not of this world and lives not on our physical plane but on another plane, perhaps a parallel plane not observed by our senses. A place free from time itself. A place and time which have had their own calculations in the ancient past...their own sightings... visible proof is expected.

God, unlike alien life or parallel universes or speed/time effects, is expected by unbelievers to provide visible proof of his existence. This makes sense because the God of the Bible requires something of men. If NASA should receive a radio signal that claims to be from a powerful intelligent alien life and they demand that all wars on earth cease and all weapons destroyed or there will be a price to pay- no wars will cease, no weapons will be destroyed. The natural response from the nations would be "show us your cards first" then maybe we'll talk.

It's the same with God. He must "show his cards" before all mankind will believe he exists.

This is logical, natural.

Frank

Doltologist

Millie210

Science is the search for the truth - supported by scientifically determined facts.

Science is now delving into the secrets of how the universe came into being. It will find the answer. They have theories and it is now only a matter of time. Most scientists in the UK do not believe that god was the creator of the universe. Whether M-theory will provide an answer or one of the other theories, who knows. I just hope that it will be in my lifetime for I will then die a happy man.

It is claimed that science and religion are not on a collision course. However, that is the proverbial elephant in the room. It will happen because, logically, that's where it must lead. Science isn't going out to disprove god, but that's where it's all going.

The religious folk understand that their time is limited but that they may as well fight to the bitter end. Already, our schools are being infiltrated with 'creationists'. Already, christian forums are locked up tighter than a duck's ass (a little light relief being injected at this point). For example, I now have been banned for life from every christian forum from here to hell and back. Why? For daring to challenge their dogma. Were you aware that christian forums share banned IP addresses? I could circumnavigate their defences but, quite frankly, I can't be bothered.

I was once asked by a creationist what I was afraid of? What was so wrong with teaching creationism alongside evolution theory. I told him that a) my child's time is far to precious to waste having his head filled with unprovable junk and b) If you want to teach religion, so be it. But do it at home or in church. c) I'm not wasting my tax dollars on someone teaching my child hocus pocus illogical nonsense.

Because the religious are now digging themselves in for the last stand and are going to fight every inch of the way, I guess that the irreligious are going to equal extremes and becoming more vocal.

I also think that there's another issue which is muddying the waters and this was discussed on another thread by someone called "My name is not important". She wrote about overhearing a discussion taking place between her son and his wife in which they claimed that the universe being created out of nothing was a preposterous idea (as if a sky pilot that hears all and sees all isn't). It made me realise just how far science has come and just how far it may have left some people behind. For the uninitiated, a universe out of nothing is perfectly feasible and is permissible within the existing laws of physics. Some people may therefore be clinging to religion because it is the soft option because it doesn't involve trying to understand scientific theory.

Just me thoughts ...

Doltologist

Daniel1555

You call praying stupid because it is speaking to someone who doesn't exist.

How do you know that no god or higher power exists? Can you prove that?

I am an Aetheist. Atheism is a response to an assertion that a higher intelligence/ deity exists.

It is not for me to disprove the existence of the intelligence/deity. It is for those that assert the existence to prove.

Oubliette

Punkofnice: Oh, here we go. Christians VS: Atheists.

Well what do you expect considering the thread title? Seriously?

It's gotta be atheists vs. theists. Or there's no discussion or debate, just, "Yeah, that's right!"

Doltologist: This forum, bless it, is one of the few that will allow discourse between believers and non-believers to take place.

Amen for that!

Oubliette

Doltologist: Science is the search for the truth

I wouldn't put it that way. Science is fundamentally a human philosophical endeavor to seek knowledge, to find explanations and to understand things as they really are rather than how we may think they are.

Science differs from religion in that science seeks to discover knowledge as opposed to claiming that it comes from some sort of supernatural revelation.

Also, what scientists discover is to be shared with all, whereas religious leaders try to assert claims of exclusivity, primarily to seize control and power over others.

Oubliette

Doltologist: a universe out of nothing is perfectly feasible and is permissible within the existing laws of physics

Well that would have to be true because scientific laws are, by definition, "a generalization about data ... a compact way of describing what we'd expect to happen in a particular situation."

Hold Me-Thrill Me

If a universe out of nothing is perfectly feasible then I suppose a God out of nothing is also. Sorry could not help myself. ;)

redvip2000

How do you know that no god or higher power exists? Can you prove that?

It seems you are mistaken. The default position to prove something invisible like this is the negative one. So it is you (the believer) who must prove that God exists.

It is not reasonable to ask someone to prove God doesn't exist in the same manner it's not logical to ask someone to prove aliens don't exist, or fairies, or Peter Pan. There is no apparent evidence of their existence, so the burden of proof falls on you to prove God exists.

Prayer - The ultimate act of stupidity

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