THE IMPONDERABLES TOPIC (Enter at your own risk)

by Terry 61 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  Terry

  I suggest taking this slowly . . .

  Consider the difference between taking a poll about an upcoming election and the actual vote itself on the day of the election.

  The information gathered about what the vote WILL BE is provisional. The vote on the day of the election is ACTUAL and official.

  It is the one that counts.

  Now, carefully ask yourself what the specific difference--if any--there is between the poll information and the election result as an identical knowledge of

  as an identical knowledge of fact?

  The pollster--it can be said--has information IN ADVANCE (foreknowledge) of the election day vote.

  Yet--it DOESN'T. Even though the tally may match the poll number exactly---it isn't the same information.

  Why?

  The poll measures provisional INTENTION and not actual occurrence. Actual occurrence can only exist at the time it happens and not before!

  ______________________________________________________

  Let's explore this in the form of a thought experiment.

  You are a prisoner in Guantanamo being tortured for information about an imminent planned terrorist explosion of a nuclear device.

  Your interrogators want specific information in Advance of the actual occurrence in order to PREVENT the actual occurrence.

  You might well say the torturers want to keep the terrorist explosion "provisional" only and not "actual", could we not?

  IF you divulge the day and hour and location of the event IN ADVANCE you ensure the event will NOT occur.

  This means, logically speaking, you have a kind of special opportunity to possess knowledge of something that will (IF you succeed)

  not take place while simultaneous to possessing its very opposite!!

  (Ponder that carefully before continuing.)

  ____________________

  This is self-reference.

  This is the inherent problem with Foreknowledge as a rational discussion. It cannot both BE and NOT be without violating the Law of the Excluded Middle.

  i.e. Something either IS or IS NOT. It cannot be BOTH at the same time.

  God's "foreknowledge" falls into this category. He cannot foreknow. Not as an actual knowledge.

  At best, God could only provisionally know that He can't actually know.
• 

  Terry

  NEXT:

  Let me demonstrate a few interesting things about our "understanding" of God.

  For God to be a Creator He must, first, create. Right?

  What about the eternity BEFORE He first created? Creation took place at a point--BEFORE WHICH---there was no creation.

  God, at that preceding point, could NOT be a Creator.

  For God to be All-Knowing there would have to be "something" to know.

  Before creation----there wasn't any....THING. Therefore, logically....God could not KNOW because there was nothing TO KNOW.

  See the problem with clear contexts and definitions? They amplify absurdity by forcing them out into the open.
• 

  Terry

  AND FINALLY . . .

  To exist is to be something, somewhere. For there to be a somewhere it must be measurable!

  Science (which is knowledge) measures before it does anything else.

  By locating and describing and measuring we pin down what IS and differentiate.

  What is the biggest difference between something REAL and something UNreal?

  Answer: you can measure it.

  I asked a question a long while back in another topic. At first it sounds wacky. But, I asked it to make an important point.

  The question was: HOW BIG IS A DEMON?

  I asked it because of the NT story of the fellow possessed by a Legion of demons who were literally driven into swine and drowned.

  My thought process was this:

  If a demon is real and the man were real then we start with what we know about man. Man is of a certain size and shape.

  In order for a LEGION (5,120 soldiers) to occupy the same space as a man---what size would they be?

  You see what I mean? By reducing the problem to the point of absurdity it becomes clear (at least to me) what baloney demons really are. At least in THAT story:)
• 

  jhine

  I follow your argument and agree that within the restrictions of finite human understanding and a linear time scenario it makes perfect sense.However we cannot know that God is restricted to the boundaries of time as we understand it. There are lots of Bible hints that we do not see the whole picture.So on the basis that my knowledge of eternity , space ,time etc may be only partial I can't agree simply because I may not know all the facts.

  Jan
• 

  Terry

  To exist is to be something, somewhere. For there to be a somewhere it must be measurable! Science (which is knowledge) measures before it does anything else. By locating and describing and measuring we pin down what IS and differentiate. What is the biggest difference between something REAL and something UNreal? Answer: you can measure it. I asked a question a long while back in another topic. At first it sounds wacky. But, I asked it to make an important point. The question was: HOW BIG IS A DEMON? I asked it because of the NT story of the fellow possessed by a Legion of demons who were literally driven into swine and drowned. My thought process was this: If a demon is real and the man was real then we start with what we know about man. Man is of a certain size and shape. In order for a LEGION (5,120 soldiers) to occupy the same space as a man---what size would they be? You see what I mean? By reducing the problem to the point of absurdity, it becomes clear (at least to me) what baloney demons really are. At least in THAT story:)
  	But are thoughts PHYSICAL? Can the mind be explained merely in physical terms related to the body? What is thought? What makes me self-aware? We can try to explain it in terms of biological function, but we really don't know where or even what the MIND is. Our thoughts are that BY MEANS OF WHICH we place objects before our mind which aren't actually there. Here is a painting in the middle of a sidewalk which is a good analogy of how a thought works to represent something NOT REALLY THERE. The only problem with "knowing what the mind is" comes from the illogic of self-reference. You cannot use the mind to define itself!
• 

  minimus

  Cmon, Terry. Who thinks of this shit so early in the morning?☕️
• 

  Terry

  However we cannot know that God is restricted to the boundaries of time as we understand it. There are lots of Bible hints that we do not see the whole picture.So on the basis that my knowledge of eternity , space ,time etc may be only partial I can't agree simply because I may not know all the facts.

  ____________________________

  We solve problems, that's what homo sapiens do.

  We never begin solving a problem by declaring ignorance as a GAME OVER.

  All science is knowledge because it is provisionally testable and amenable to additional evidence.

  The first men who sailed out "too far" in expeditions into the unknown may have seen maps

  where the horizon ended and the words: HERE THERE BE DRAGONS boldly emblazoned.

  This topic if for the mind mariner who refuses to be kept on shore by fear of the end of the known.
• 

  Terry

  Minimus: I do.
• 

  Terry

  "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

  If there were nothing (now follow with me on this) the person who asks this question would not exist either.

  The fact that the question exists means there must be something so that the QUESTION can exist.

  This topic is intended to focus on KNOWLEDGE. There is no "question" without a mind to do the questioning. The existence of a questioner and a question produces the result. Without a questioner, there is no question, and without existence there is no questioner.
• 

  minimus

  i know.