THE IMPONDERABLES TOPIC (Enter at your own risk) (page 4)

Vidiot

Terry - "I ran out of cream!"

Jeezus, Terry; what'd you use instead? Mescaline?

prologos

Millie210, the idea of "time" was only brought in because it is relevant to Terry's good points. all this creating and purposing can not happen without having time available.

The idea of time 'before the beginning of our universe' is not a notion void of validity. Penrose and the others that postulate the energy, virtual matter, instability of fluctuations, all requiring time.

When I consider movement forward in time, stand-still in time, I do not mean it in the "Vonnegut" sense, or( like travelling back in time and killing your grandmother) , but the rlativistic effect of Zero time movement at the speed of light, in great gravity fields.

To ponder the imponderable suject of a creator god, to who human limitaions apply, you have to try to get a grasp on the conditions that would exist in thepre-creation domain, would there even be a cause and effect?

pondering.

millie210

I understand about the effect of gravity on the speed of light. Dense enough, gravity can slow down the speed of light.

I saw a demonstration of that one time at a museum exhibit.

Thats about it for me splashing around in the deep end of this intellectual pool.

you keep pondering and I will keep reading~

prologos

millie, the only way the speed of light can be slowed down if the beam, photon, wave goes throegh a denser material, like a diamond, water.

It is the travel of the particle or wave THROUGH TIME that stops, The speed of light through space is the constant, is unchanging.

I just mentioned that to show that time can exist, without anything moving through it. like an untravelled highway.

Once we can see that energy like that does not move through time, why should a possible creator?

Terry

I woke up, you see, about 4 a.m.

That is a VERY boring time to regain consciousness!

For me consciousness is like a speeding vehicle--it needs space in which to travel.

I can't just jump out of bed, dress and start riding my bike.

TV is really not an alternative.

So, I turn inside my head and try to ask questions about the 'obvious' AS THOUGH it was unknown OR somehow WRONG.

I know--it sounds nutty.

_______________________

I've arrived at a kind of viewpoint about most so-called IMPONDERABLES.

I think the reason we get into a tight spot with thinking, analysis, interpretation

and such is this. WORDS are inherently ambiguous.

We are seldom rigorous in separating magisteria.

We trick ourselves unwittingly.

________________

For example, the word RIGHT.

Is it RIGHT to be right-handed?

That question might produce many obvious responses. Being left-handed is sinister, so, why not?

THIS silliness is partly caused by careless use of words, overlapping contexts, transparency accretions, etc.

__________________

Once we bother to DEFINE anything sort of thing at all--WE TRAP OURSELVES in a locked-in context.

It becomes difficult (if not impossible) to extricate the thing from the 'obvious' context.

____________________

I thought we could all clear-the-pipes of rust by discussing "hard" concepts.

Mostly, I gave myself something to do until the dawn crept across the diaphanous fabric of my curtains!

CARRY ON!

Terry

You cannot use the mind to define itself!

Why not? All knowledge is constructed by our mind.

_________________________________

I don't look at knowledge the same as you do, I suppose.

Knowledge isn't something you can reach down and pick up and put in your pocket.

If you own an encyclopedia set it means nothing if you can't read.

-----I was once in the house of an actual BILLIONAIRE and was knocked sideways by the gorgeous Bosendorfer grand piano he owned.

I asked permission to sit down and fiddle with it. (Notice the anomalous word choice.)

AGHHH! He hadn't bothered to tune it!

For me, this is the 'key' to knowledge itself.

We can own it and not tune it.

I can say "quantum particle" and sound savvy. But, Richard Feynman once said "Anybody who thinks they understand quantum physics doesn't."

One of my favorite books of all time is SURELY YOU'RE JOKING, MISTER FEYNMAN

“I have a friend who's an artist and has sometimes taken a view which I don't agree with very well. He'll hold up a flower and say "look how beautiful it is," and I'll agree. Then he says "I as an artist can see how beautiful this is but you as a scientist take this all apart and it becomes a dull thing," and I think that he's kind of nutty. First of all, the beauty that he sees is available to other people and to me too, I believe. Although I may not be quite as refined aesthetically as he is ... I can appreciate the beauty of a flower. At the same time, I see much more about the flower than he sees. I could imagine the cells in there, the complicated actions inside, which also have a beauty. I mean it's not just beauty at this dimension, at one centimeter; there's also beauty at smaller dimensions, the inner structure, also the processes. The fact that the colors in the flower evolved in order to attract insects to pollinate it is interesting; it means that insects can see the color. It adds a question: does this aesthetic sense also exist in the lower forms? Why is it aesthetic? All kinds of interesting questions which the science knowledge only adds to the excitement, the mystery and the awe of a flower. It only adds. I don't understand how it subtracts.”
― Richard P. Feynman

“I learned very early the difference between knowing the name of something and knowing something.”
― Richard P. Feynman

“I... a universe of atoms, an atom in the universe.”
― Richard P. Feynman

http://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/1429989.Richard_P_Feynman

Hairtrigger

This website rocks. The cardinal rule of evolutionary thought is think the unthinkable. And rethink the think that is unthinkable! And evolve.

If the 8 million village idiots, who masquerade as the only ones with a supreme cranium connection to the divine fountainhead of knowledge ( they have more s**t in their heads than their ass) would,miraculously, get to this website and peruse through the intellectual river that runs through it , perhaps they might overcome being the witless witnesses they are programmed to be. Perhaps. Methinks!! Or is that unthinkable?

Thanks Terry, and everybody else on this thread.

Terry

I revel in the strange realization I was attracted to Jehovah's Witnesses because I was LEARNING things

I'd never heard before!

What is clear today is the mechanism of the revelation.

In teaching a Newbie Bible study, there is a gradual DEBUNKING of mainstream Christianity and Bible corruption.

This is shocking, thrilling and a big set-up for what happens next!

The Newbie confirms mainstream Christianity has a vast "conspiracy" of crooked history and bald assertions.

HOWEVER--JW'S REPLACE THE DISCARDED BELIEFS WITH EQUALLY FALSE ASSERTIONS.

The Newbie TRUSTS the JW because so much has been 'revealed'.

__________________________________________________

The incredible feat of exposing the 'tampering' of scripture with an insistence the Bible is inerrant, is no mean accomplishment.

For all practical purposes, a bait-and-switch transpires: WATCHTOWER INTERPRETATION is substituted for scripture.

I think of that sign on the side of the building in Bethel: READ THE BIBLE DAILY.

It really means: READ OUR INTERPRETATIONS and PRETEND YOU'RE READING THE BIBLE.

__________________________________________________________

The sense of vast "discovery' JW's have must be intellectually exciting. Why else do they so look forward to NEW LIGHT?

Isn't it because they have been tricked into thinking the OLD LIGHT wasn't FALSE?

Surely!

An insidious tampering with rational thought erodes and destroys honest inqury.

From the get-go the Newbie is given no opportunity to QUESTION---only the false sense of freedom to inquire.

How so?

The Questions are given BY PROXY and the PREFABRICATED answers follow.

The Society publications foster that false sense of Q&A and it is illusory.

________________-

Free Inquiry becomes dangerous Independent Thinking in a very short time.

_________________--

To be a JW is to view any personal inquiry as a betrayal of the bond of LOYALTY to their surrogate brain: THE GOVERNING BODY.

sparrowdown

Panhandlegirl- Terry said of God " if He cannot know, He does not exist".

I am merely pointing out that technically speaking, not knowing you exist, doesn't mean you don't exist.

Oubliette

Rocks, water, air and light all exist and they are not aware of their own existence.

You're mixing scientific knowledge with "quantum woo" theosophy.

Knowledge ONLY exists in the human mind.

- - - - - -

On another note, if something is truly "imponderable" you cannot, by definition, ponder it. You can ever only talk "around it, all the while never ever getting anywhere."

On the other hand, there have been quite a few "ponderous thoughts" exchanged on this thread. Very well, but they are then, again by definition, on subjects which are not "imponderable."

The very thesis of the thread sets you up for at best only two possibilities:

You will fail at what you set out to do, and
You can and will only talk about other things

What's the point?

THE IMPONDERABLES TOPIC (Enter at your own risk)

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