Passing through again, Jerry. Heinous as they are the crimes of the Watchtower pale in comparison to those of the Holy Roman Catholic Church, past and present. Given the choice I'd prefer seeing Rome dismantled, much as I'd delight in the end of both.
Many Member Just Want to Believe
by OnTheWayOut 45 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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OnTheWayOut
To a degree, I tend to agree with you, Nickolas. The wealth alone that would be freed from a dismantling of the RMC and the end of contributions could really help out some of the poorest people in the world. The wealth of Watchtower wouldn't go as far and the end of contributions would mostly help out middle class English speaking people who will give it somewhere else anyway. But if it were just the smallest number of individuals that "got out," the average Catholic leads a fairly normal life compared to the average JW. The minds of freed former JW's would explore the things they were missing out on in life, while the minds of most former Catholics would change little. We are disagreeing on hypotheticals, and only disagreeing in small amounts.
And I suppose love conquers all. Truly, other than the wealth statement above, I would much rather see my loved ones waking up from a dismantled Watchtower corp. than I would like to see the dismantling of the RMC.
As far as heinous crimes by the RMC, most of it is in the distant past with the Inquisition and making and breaking of kings and taxations stuff. So, yeah. WTS doesn't come close. Coming to modern era RMC vs. modern era WTS, they still have an edge because of size. But I betcha by percentage, the pedophile problem is worse in Watchtower, by percentage the number of deaths due to following the doctrine or just sheer depression of members is way higher. The percentage of people shunned or treated poorly for leaving "the church" is way higher in WTS. Lets agree that we see each other's points and our hypotheticals are going in slightly different directions. I would be happy to see it all fall apart your way and you would be happy to see it fall apart my way.
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Nickolas
Not to diminish what the Watchtower has done - the pictures of those kids on the cover of a particular Awake! magazine and the less recent slaughter in Malawi immediately come to mind - I have a tendency to weigh absolute numbers more than proportionals. The past atrocities of Rome paved the way to its present condition, and those atrocities have never been and never will be addressed. Genocide and murder by the millions while stolen gold built the Vatican is but mere, recent centuries ago. But the systematic rape of innocents has dwindled from a deluge to a trickle only in modern times, in spite of the broadbased coverup from on high, so remains a crime against humanity that awaits a just consequence proportional to the evil it has perpetrated. All those children, now adults, are still with us, and they number in the hundreds of thousands around the world. There is every reason to believe it is still happening where scrutiny is suppressed. Those of us living in the developed world are far less impacted by the enduring power of Rome than elsewhere. The Roman Church's proscription of contraception, notably the use of condoms, is causing as I write the deaths from AIDS of its adherents and their children in Africa. In Latin America where the power of the Church still holds sway women are being imprisoned for life for having had an abortion. Incest, rape, poverty, circumstance of no consquence or consideration. And still it takes from the poor so that its opulence can be sustained. The Roman Catholic church is the greater obscenity by any measure. Islam yet another. Slaughtering children in the name of God. It is to weep. It is all one big, putrid barrel of rotten apples of which the Watchtower is a small component. But, yes, we both want essentially the same thing. And this is the JWN, after all, not the HRCN, so the focus is not as broad. Perhaps why I now spend so little time in here.
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OnTheWayOut
I don't know what I was saying with "RMC." Surely I meant the Roman Catholic Church- RCC. You nailed it with " Those of us living in the developed world are far less impacted by the enduring power of Rome than elsewhere."
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quest81
I have put forward evidence and arguments that are devastating in their clarity and logic but they bounce harmlessly off her faith. While I watch myself grow older in the mirror I have come to accept that I will not get through to the love of my life. Not entirely resignation. There is also the "be careful what you wish for" aspect of things. If I managed to get through and the light went on inside her head the possibility of unintended consequences is considerable. I think she is one of those people who need faith to be happy. If those people lose their faith and for the first time in their lives clearly perceive the oblivion that awaits them it might just be beyond bearing. Perhaps terrifying. It's a corollary to the canard that faith is good because it gives one hope.
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What the Watchtower teaches, how it controls the thoughts of its adherents, is a variation on a common theme. A particularly insidious variation, to be sure, but a matter only of degree. Some of the most ardent critics of the Watchtower, including many of those frequenting this forum, steadfastly cling to a less strident variation of the very same faith espoused by the Watchtower.
Nickolas: That's deep, but I hear you.
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quest81
OnTheWayOut: I can relate to your frustration in trying to get TTATT through to your spouse. I am in similar situation as yourself and Nickolas though I have always been an UBM. The hardest part for me is watching the love of my life get guilted, manipulated and give away her ability to think for herself to some delusional men with a God complex. Like you I have a fermenting need to show my spouse that she has been deceived for so long, after reading the requisite material (Hassan et al) I realize now that love, patience and opportunity (to ask questions) are the keywords.
One other thing I am learning to do is to listen, cognitive dissonance is quite the interesting phenomenon, people let out a lot of their subconscious thoughts in things they say when their guard is down - listen to her.