who's a member of PLN in here?

Here is some of the discussion there...

2WillowTree
Member

Registered: Jan 2002
Location: I live in Dallas/FortWorth Texas
Posts: 117

It appears that Dateline on May 28 is going to be a cause of stumbling for many. They will be featuring Ray Franz's book "Crisis of Conscience".

Has anyone else heard about this being on Dateline?

Joan

Bunky
Member

Registered: Dec 2001
Location: the world
Posts: 970

I thought it was a show about child abuse.

Kanayla
Modern Nomader

Registered: Jan 2002
Location: Madison, TN
Posts: 32

I heard sometime last year that Dateline was trying to gather up offenses against WT&TS. Some recent (or not so recent) court cases have given them the ammo they needed, if this is even going to be talking about JWs.

Kanayla
Modern Nomader

Registered: Jan 2002
Location: Madison, TN
Posts: 32

Plus, it just goes to show that person can be an apostate and not even have a clue that they are and in effect those around them don't even know. How sly Satan is!

Johnny
Member

Registered: Jan 2002
Location: Northern Europe
Posts: 33

I heard it's about the child abuse issue. Let's hope that some REAL brothers are interviewed too in the program.

Kanayla
Modern Nomader

Registered: Jan 2002
Location: Madison, TN
Posts: 32

Can you even imagine being put on the spot like THAT? I can't. I would break, afraid to say something wrong, something that somebody would misconstrue.

the thing that gets me is that this Ray Franz was disfellowshipped 20 years ago! So much has changed since then! What does he REALLY know about us now? Even I don't know everything there is to know. I know people who have been in the truth for 40+ years and STILL don't know everything....So how could he put us up on the judgement block with this kind of arrogance?

Oppps.....Satan.

AKbev
"Frozen Chosen" Member

Registered: Dec 2001
Location: Big Lake, Alaska
Posts: 311

Like Kanayla I don't think I could ever handle being put on the spot either. I know my husband had to go in front of generals with medals dripping off their uniforms and tell them he would not go to Viet Nam. Scary, but he did it. I haven't heard about this program myself. I don't watch much t.v. anymore.

Johnny
Member

Registered: Jan 2002
Location: Northern Europe
Posts: 33

Just found this on NBC's site:

TUESDAY, MAY 28
10:00 P.M. ET -
Dateline NBC investigates allegations that Jehovah’s Witness members have covered up cases of child molestation in the Church. Dateline Correspondent John Larson talked to former and current Jehovah’s Witnesses who say that Church elders protected the alleged molesters and kept secrets that might have put children at risk.

SmilinShutterBug
Moderator

Registered: Dec 2001
Location: San Angelo,TX (just moved here)
Posts: 1018

nevermind

Rejoice
Moderator

Registered: Dec 2001
Location:
Posts: 799

If the aim of this programme is to arouse something emotional from the audience so as to attract more ppl to watch their channel or programme, but not really aim on finding out the truth, then even if a real brother is interviewed, his speech would be twisted. This is the trick of those reporters and we shouldn't be surprised on it.

According to 1 Cor 5:13, it's the elders' duties to expell someone who commit serious crime with no repentance, and Rom 13:4 says it's the duty of the worldly gov't to 'bear sword to express wrath' to those committed crime.

Even one is d'fd, he/she can still attend our meetings, even someone is announced being d'fd, there won't be announcement about that person what wickedness he/she has committed. This isn't mean to 'cover'.

One more thing, what if the one who is sentenced by the govt as guilty but in fact is innocent?

Someone has commented before that even if it was some elders had handled the case incorrectly, it isn't surprising too, they are imperfect. Jehovah would correct things in HIS way & in HIS time.

Lastly, don't worry but trust on Jehovah, we know very clear that HE could turn a curse into a blessing.

Indigo
Member

Registered: Jan 2002
Location: USA
Posts: 379

We should always remember what Paul said at 2 Corinthians 13:8, "For we can do nothing against the truth, but only for the truth."
Jesus made an interesting comment at Luke 22:31, "Simon, Simon, look! Satan has demanded to have you men to sift you as wheat." How many were stumbled by all the false accusations against Jesus. What about those who Judas personally had taught, did some of them then turn their backs on Jesus because of what Judas did. Probably so.

Will some be stumbled by what they see on Dateline, probably, but hopefully not. But after all we are facing the great tribulation, a time when we will be relying on our brothers and sisters for encouragement and help. Would we really want to turn to a brother or sister whose confidence in Jehovah and his organization would be so easily shaken by what some news program has to say. Those who face the Great Tribulation are going to be tried and tested to the limit.

Of course Jehovah's organization has grown and learned as they have had to deal with an increasingly immoral and wicked world. I have full confidence the elders are being trained and prepared to help us all stay strong spiritually. If some stumble and fall along the way, including elders, hopefully they will recover before it is to late. As Peter so well put it at John 6:66-68 when Jesus asked him did he want to leave him like others did who were stumbled, "Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of evelasting life.

CandleintheSand
Member

Registered: Dec 2001
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 19

Apostates have so much hate for Jehovah's Organization that they will stop at nothing, as proved in France, Russia and now here in US.

The media can be so slanted, and many times, as has already been mentioned in posts, will slant things said and focus on the negative.

Media is well aware of how Jehovah's Witnesses are growing and how much is said about our door to door preaching activity. They may just be trying to add fuel to what people can say to us in the future. And of course, apostates and those disgruntled with a congregation action are just out to make trouble.

We've heard about this program coming out on Dateline and haven't decided if we will watch it or not. Now that we've heard that Ray Franz is going to be on it, that makes for our NOT watching it, we know he is an apostate and already know, in essance, what he will say.

To watch or not to watch is a personal issue, but why would we want to give a hearing ear to apostates and disfellowshipped people? That is exactly what they want, to have a listening ear from those who are faithful to Jehovah and his organization.

If brothers are interviewed on this program, we know they will do a superb job, but then some of their comments may be cut short when actual program is aired.

Our thought is to really go over the info on JW Media on child abuse and look up past articles in Watchtower/Awake so we can be prepared for what is sure to come from comments we will hear.

Perhaps this could all turn around to be able to give a great witness as often happens...Jehovah can well make it so as he has so often in the past! To the chagrin of many, a negative issue can turn into a positive!

The comment one poster made might be all we need to say, that while other organizations are "debating on what to do on the issue of child abuse, Jehovah's Witnessesses has had the procedures on how to deal with an abuser in place for years. (Jehovah's organization is never to be outdone on anything! Jehovah sees to that!

Also, just an additonal comment. I've been a witness for over 40 years and have never seen or heard of an issue of child abuse and have been associated in congregations in Colorado, Oregon and New Mexico. This is not to say that this things haven't happened, just that I personally have not heard of any, and my heart goes out to anyone personally affected.

Keep The Faith and thank you for all encouraging and wonderfull posts!

whistlebritches
Member

Registered: Jan 2002
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 246

Keep in mind Bro. Brown, P. R. for Bethel, & how well he answered up. That is "all" our fine brothers are called upon to do; any "positive" results are left under the direction of the angels.

So, if active JW's ARE there on the DATELINE program, I will watch it. Beth

CandleintheSand
Member

Registered: Dec 2001
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 19

quote:
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Originally posted by whistlebritches
Keep in mind Bro. Brown, P. R. for Bethel, & how well he answered up. That is "all" our fine brothers are called upon to do; any "positive" results are left under the direction of the angels.

So, if active JW's ARE there on the DATELINE program, I will watch it. Beth
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You are so right!!!

Heard Brother Brown on a radio interview where he answered questions from callers that ranged from use of blood to flag salute and our ministry. He did so well. In fact still have link to this interview if anyone would like to have it.

Thought of not watching Dateline due to knowing truth could be slanted or distorted by media, and knowing it will be by apostates but would enjoy hearing response from brothers who were interviewed.

whistlebritches
Member

Registered: Jan 2002
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 246

When Bill O'Rielly was pushing for mandatory flag salute in schools, his legal opponent reminded him of how that issue had been settled in the Supreme Court in 1943., by JW'S.

Courage, my Friends! These events are only a test: Testing, testing, testing...

Iamfragile79
Member

Registered: Apr 2002
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 64

Methinks they are trying to cash in on the Catholic church's scandals by trying to create one for us. Child abuse has long been a tactic of apostates trying to sway others granted, but I find the timing of this program a liiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiitle conicidental. If its scandal and trouble they want to cause, they aren't going to have it LOL!

2WillowTree
Member

Registered: Jan 2002
Location: I live in Dallas/FortWorth Texas
Posts: 117

For those of you in the Fort Worth area of Texas and have Charter cable, it is on at 7PM on channel 5, May 28.

Jehovah's people aren't perfect. I have heard that it is true that abuse cases were not taken care of the way Jehovah's organization would of handled it, in some congregations. Yes I understand that in Jehovah's due time, he cleans up congregations that need attention. It is sad that the media has it brought to their attention.

Bunky
Member

Registered: Dec 2001
Location: the world
Posts: 970

In my 33 years as a witness, I have seen several cases of sexual child abuse in the congregations I have been in. Sad to say, there is no group of people immune to this problem. The difference is in how it is handled. Is it investigated and handled by the elder body? It should be because it is porneia as far as the abuser is concerned (the victim is guilty of no sexual immorality). Is the victim given the necessary affirmation and support they will need as well as any other innocent family members affected. This is also a serious crime, and is considered rape by the secular authorities and should be reported. Many times law enforcement have means to determine guilt or innocence of the accused that does not require 2 eyewitnesses (DNA evidence for one). Pedophiles rarely rape their victims with an audience.

Just because you have not heard of it, does not mean it does not exist. The idea is to keep it confidential in the congregation, so only those in the congregation who need to know will know.

Kent Stallard
Member

Registered: Apr 2002
Location: Gilbert, Arizona
Posts: 8

Apparently the Dateline segment will be a regurgitation of the same old complaints from the handful of apostates who have been creating allegations of a child abuse "scandal" among JWs. This has been ongoing for several years now. I tend to agree with Iamfragile's assessment that the national media is trying to cash in on this 'old news' in the wake of the recent attention to the problem of abuse in the Catholic Church.

It's typical of the national news media to focus on negative, sensationalized stories with regard to not only JWs, but other groups as well. I know a few people who work in the media business, and they'll tell you that the purpose of the news outlets is NOT to inform, but rather to deliver a specific audience (demographic) to their advertisers. A perfect example is the current focus on the Chandra Levy story in the wake of the discovery of her body. A tragic situation, to be sure, and no one would deny that this story is very important to the deceased's family and friends. But it has absolutely little if any significance to anyone else (her alleged involvment with Rep. Condit notwithstanding). There are far more important and weighty matters to report on--such as the ongoing attempts by multinational corporations to privatize the water supply in India and other Asian countries--but the media is typically far more concerned with covering sensationalized 'tabloid'-style stories than issues of substance.

Likewise, the alleged "scandal" among JWs consists largely of hearsay repeated by a handful of accusers. A far more significant and important story in relation to JWs would be the Supreme Court case involving the proposed permit system in Statton, Ohio. But which story would get the highest Neilsen ratings? That's a no-brainer, and NBC knows it.

It's aggravating to see such baseless accusations against us garner widespread media coverage, but as other comments here have noted, Jehovah will set everything straight in his due time. And, really, if the media always had nothing but positive things to say about us, wouldn't it give us pause to wonder if were were still on the right track?

Kent Stallard
Member

Registered: Apr 2002
Location: Gilbert, Arizona
Posts: 8

Bunky :

quote:
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I have seen several cases of sexual child abuse in the congregations I have been in. Sad to say, there is no group of people immune to this problem. The difference is in how it is handled.
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True. Which is what distinguishes Jehovah's organization from that of, for example, the Catholic church. We don't have a systematic, institutionalized policy , pattern and history of sweeping child abuse under the carpet, or allowing known, unrepentant abusers to remain in the congregation, much less occupy positions of responsibility. (Even repentant abusers are denied positions of oversight)

quote:
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Is it investigated and handled by the elder body? It should be because it is porneia as far as the abuser is concerned (the victim is guilty of no sexual immorality).
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If the elders are doing their job properly, of course it is. I personally don't know of any elder who would ignore such a serious charge. Of course, there are limitations in terms of how much investigating the elders can do. They don't have all the tools, expertise and authority of law enforcement.

quote:
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Is the victim given the necessary affirmation and support they will need as well as any other innocent family members affected.
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Again, if the elders are doing their job according to the directives in the Scriptures and the publications, that will occur. Are there cases where a local elder(s) has failed to fully discharge their responsibility? No doubt there have been. But that fact does not support the apostates' contention that there is a centralized, widespread policy of neglect among JWs with regard to the handling of child abuse.

quote:
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This is also a serious crime, and is considered rape by the secular authorities and should be reported.
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And there is absolutely nothing to prevent the victim(s) and their family from reporting such a crime to the police. IF the elders can determine with certainty that the accused is indeed guilty of abuse, I would imagine that in almost every case they would urge the offender to turn themselves into the authorities. The apostates claim that elders have "punished" individuals for reporting child abusers to the police. Personally, I can't imagine that any elder that I've ever known would do something like that. IF it has happened, then those elders will be corrected in due time, I'm sure, as they are NOT following the guidelines of the organization.

quote:
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Many times law enforcement have means to determine guilt or innocence of the accused that does not require 2 eyewitnesses (DNA evidence for one).
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Which is why it would behoove the victim and/or their family to pursue the matter with the secular authorities if the elder body cannot SCRIPTURALLY establish the guilt of the accused. As I noted earlier, the elders aren't forensic specialists. They can only determine guilt based on an admission by the accused, or at the word of two witnesses--that's the Scriptural guideline. No body of elders acting in accord with organizational policies will hinder or discourage the victim and their family from going to the police.

quote:
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Just because you have not heard of it, does not mean it does not exist. The idea is to keep it confidential in the congregation, so only those in the congregation who need to know will know.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sadly, I've heard of a couple of cases of child abuse among the Witnesses in my 30+ years in the Truth. But I've NEVER seen ANY evidence of mishandling of abuse cases, or evidence of any policy or pattern of mishandling or coverup.

The "idea" is to keep the congregation clean while following Scriptural guidelines in handling matters of serious sin and the accusation of serious sin. The apostates are crying "scandal" because the organization doesn't follow their personal ideas about how allegations of abuse should be handled.

shelby
Member

Registered: Dec 2001
Location: somewhere...out there
Posts: 245

from the msnbc dateline page:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TUESDAY, MAY 28 - 10:00 PM ET

Dateline NBC investigates allegations that Jehovah’s Witness members have covered up cases of child molestation in the Church. Dateline Correspondent John Larson talked to former and current Jehovah’s Witnesses who say that Church elders protected the alleged molesters and kept secrets that might have put children at risk.
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doesn't sound like they're going to reveal anything earthshaking. "church elders" are not going to announce that "bro so and so is a pedophile" from the platform. especially if there is little or no evidence...uh, i believe that's called slander...especially if the charge can't be proven.

there is no denying that mistakes are made in the "back room." and i have knowledge of some that were wronged as victims and as 'perps.' (and that galls me...that someone would cry 'molest' just to get rid of the male figure who is cramping their style...but i understand that this is the number one issue raised in custody cases, because it's so difficult to prove...and so easy to put someone through the wringer over, even when the charges are unfounded. it spits in the face of every person who was truly victimized...especially when justice was not done in their case...but i digress...again...) some people just live with being 'wronged' and move on. others see the opportunity for their "15 minutes of fame."

this is really an issue of responsibility. did "the society" pay out millions of our voluntary donations in "hush money?" if they did, then yes, they bear some responsibility, just as the catholic church bears some responsibility....the malcontents are going to have a tough time proving that actually happened though...

bottom line is that the responsibility for protecting children falls on the parents, not the elders...(specially considering that children are more at risk from a family member than the raincoated pervert in the park...) the elders do not have aj (administration of justice) degrees...though that's not a bad idea, things getting to be what they are...

ioneblair
Member

Registered: Dec 2001
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 174

quote:
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the elders do not have aj degrees...though that's not a bad idea, things getting to be what they are...
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of course you are joking sis, right?

__________________
agape,
gwen

AKbev
"Frozen Chosen" Member

Registered: Dec 2001
Location: Big Lake, Alaska
Posts: 311

Sensationalism is the name of the media game. And we always need to remember that Satan is the ruler of this world, therefore he uses any tool to put Jehovah & his organization in a negative light.

AndiGirl
The Fool on the Hill

Registered: Dec 2001
Location: Northern California
Posts: 347
I think Shelby means JD degrees (that stands for Jurisprudence, incidently). And the elders have access to all the degrees they need to deal with things.

(I know of what I speak).

yentel
Member

Registered: Dec 2001
Location:
Posts: 29
frogs

i awoke wondering if this might be the first of the frogs in revelation. guess we'll know before long. the fds will guide us in this matter. in fact i guess i think they already have with the training we have from the scriptures not to be easily shaken.
agape yentel

jwdoorman
Member

Registered: May 2002
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 2

The "Faithful Slave" has given the Congregations and their shepherds specific direction that those with such a past can NOT SERVE, nor are to even be recommended to serve as shepherds or servants of the congregation. A brother guilty of child abuse CAN NOT SERVE AS ELDER OR MINISTERIAL SERVANT, a position of trust and protection for the flock!!!!!! Of course we don't expect this to be brought out by the media. Aren't we glad that in this world of lies and twisted minds, we have the "truth" that sets us free from satans polluted air.

whistlebritches
Member

Registered: Jan 2002
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 246

Jesus said we would be persecuted as HE was persecuted......simple as that. I learned, & I taught my children, that when somone is "going off" on you, draw a deep breath, & in spite of dstractions, mildly & completely address each issue. You have thereby "accomplished your Ministry," whether you get a hearing ear or not.

Beth

Prairie Sunset
Member

Registered: Jan 2002
Location: Canadian Prairies
Posts: 461
If you do a search on the World News site you can find numerous articles dealing with this particular program and the people involved.

We may find otherwise tomorrow evening but it appears to me that they are basing a complete program on one specific incident. It would also appear that it was dealt with in a theocratic manner.

I am sure that all opened minded people will see it for what it is - media sensationalism.

As W.B. said our Leader, Christ Jesus, was persecuted and so shall we be.

Perhaps our elders are human but they are put in their positions by Jehovah to look after his people and they are doing a marvelous job. We truly can hold our heads high as we are truly a blessed people.

shelby
Member

Registered: Dec 2001
Location: somewhere...out there
Posts: 245
sensationalism indeed...
i saw several commercials for the program last night while watching the ww2 program that was on...now it's purported to be 'hundreds of cases on file at headquarters'...then they show this person rummaging through a messy, overstuffed file drawer...even a child could keep neater records...and that's supposed to represent our headquarters? maybe they couldn't get in? it's probably their own office being used...

Kent Stallard
Member

Registered: Apr 2002
Location: Gilbert, Arizona
Posts: 8

shelby :

quote:
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...they show this person rummaging through a messy, overstuffed file drawer...even a child could keep neater records...and that's supposed to represent our headquarters? maybe they couldn't get in?
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LOL.

philologus
Member

Registered: Dec 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 233
I can imagine the Society's lawyers going through the tape with a fine toothed comb.
Anyone seen it yet?

Prairie Sunset
Member

Registered: Jan 2002
Location: Canadian Prairies
Posts: 461

Going to be interesting to see if anyone from "Headquarters" recognizes the person rummaging through the file cabinet. And if it really is someone from "Headquarters" what was reallllly going on!!!

I haven't had the privilege of touring any of the Bethels but from what I have been told you certainly will not find a messy filing cabinet there.

CandleintheSand
Member

Registered: Dec 2001
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 19
Just found this on AOL News, looks like it is dated May 10. I sure hope I am okay with posting this, as it is a copyright. If I am not, please let me know.

Thought it was interesting because it seems like the people written about here are the main ones making the allegations of what Dateline is presenting tonight.

What I am thinking is: consider the source

Jehovah's Witnesses Kick Out Couple

By BETH CAMPBELL
.c The Associated Press

LOUISVILLE, Ky. (AP) - A woman said Friday she and her husband have been excommunicated from the Jehovah's Witnesses after speaking out against the church's handling of their daughter's allegations of sex abuse by another member.

Barbara and Carl Pandelo, of Belmar, N.J., had been awaiting a decision since Monday, when a judicial committee of the church met in New Jersey to consider ousting them, a practice which the denomination terms disfellowshipping.

``They've just made it official now,'' she said Friday night in a telephone interview.

They are among four Jehovah's Witnesses who were threatened with disfellowship for sowing discord in the faith by speaking out against the church.

One of them, William Bowen, a 44-year-old former church elder from Draffenville, Ky., has complained that child-sex allegations are generally not reported to secular authorities by the Jehovah's Witnesses because of the church's closed nature and insistence on handling problems internally.

Anthony Valenti, an elder in the Pandelos' church, did not immediately return phone calls Friday night.

But J.R. Brown, a spokesman for the denomination, said earlier this week that parents are not punished by the church for going to the police first in cases of child molestation. He said anyone found guilty of molestation by a church judicial committee is removed from all positions of responsibility.

The Pandelos' dispute with the denomination dates to 1988, when their 12-year-old daughter said she was molested by her paternal grandfather, also a member of the faith. The grandfather has returned to the denomination.

Carl and Barbara Pandelo have not been active in the church for some time, she said, but she regrets losing the friends they made.

``To take someone and shun and abandon them is the most psychologically damaging thing you can do,'' Pandelo said.

Barbara Anderson of Normandy, Tenn., has also been summoned to appear before a committee. Anderson has said she learned about the church's handling of abuse cases while working at its headquarters in New York City.

BIGFOOT
I need a trim...

Registered: Mar 2002
Location:
Posts: 389
Dateline show description

shelby
Member

Registered: Dec 2001
Location: somewhere...out there
Posts: 245

the "former elder" bill bowen claiming responsibility for getting this "expose" out...he has a website called "silentlambs" and was holding a candlelight vigil for all the poor victimized "lambs"... supposedly at the kh where his committe meeting was being held...i've been talking with a friend who is very confused over this whole thing...at their request i looked over mr bowen's site...i have my serious doubts that he is/was a witness, though, like most of those whom i've encountered that run a deceptive site to suck in sincere ones, he's got his terminology down...claims to have sat in on a specific number of judicial cases, over 1,000...now do any of you elders keep a tally of your judicial cases??? and only after these 1,000+ cases his conscience started to bother him??? (crisis of conscience???)
his site suffers from waaay too little empathy and help for the very victims he claims to champion...and my friend noticed this as well...

unfortunately my friend also confessed regularly reading a large and blatant apostate site, on which "elder bowen" is a frequent contributor...friend says he seems quite taken with himself and the problems he is causing. friend was raised in the truth (sort of...one of those highly dysfunctional witness families...not unlike my own...) but since reaching adulthood can neither walk toward or completely away from Jehovah's people. *sigh* i know so many of these people...kids i used to babysit, now grown and can't seem to find their way past their past...and some pervert on a streetcorner or a website all to happy to cash in on peoples pain and uncertainty...and to offer them what?! animosity, hatred and the future goal of destroying the wt society...idiots! and they accuse us of being brainwashed?!...course i am making the huge conclusive leap that followers of those people had a brain to wash...

2WillowTree
Member

Registered: Jan 2002
Location: I live in Dallas/FortWorth Texas
Posts: 117
*** w95 11/1 28-9 Comfort for Those With a "Stricken Spirit" ***
.
What Can Elders Do?
If the elders are approached by a member of the congregation who is experiencing flashbacks or “repressed memories” of child abuse, two of them are usually assigned to help. These elders should kindly encourage the afflicted one to focus for the time being on coping with the emotional distress. The names of any “remembered” abusers should be kept in strict confidence.
The elders’ primary task is to act as shepherds. (Isaiah 32:1, 2; 1 Peter 5:2, 3) They should be especially careful to “clothe [themselves] with the tender affections of compassion, kindness, lowliness of mind, mildness, and long-suffering.” (Colossians 3:12) Let them listen in a kindly way and then apply healing words from the Scriptures. (Proverbs 12:18) Some who are afflicted with painful “memories” have expressed appreciation for elders who make regular visits or even telephone calls to check to see how they are doing. Such contacts need not take a lot of time, but they show that Jehovah’s organization cares. When the afflicted one realizes that his Christian brothers truly love him, he may be helped to recover a considerable degree of emotional balance.
What if the sufferer decides that he wants to make an accusation? Then the two elders can advise him that, in line with the principle at Matthew 18:15, he should personally approach the accused about the matter. If the accuser is not emotionally able to do this face-to-face, it can be done by telephone or perhaps by writing a letter. In this way the one accused is given the opportunity to go on record before Jehovah with his answer to the accusation. He may even be able to present evidence that he could not have committed the abuse. Or perhaps the one accused will confess, and a reconciliation may be achieved. What a blessing that would be! If there is a confession, the two elders can handle matters further in accordance with Scriptural principles.
If the accusation is denied, the elders should explain to the accuser that nothing more can be done in a judicial way. And the congregation will continue to view the one accused as an innocent person. The Bible says that there must be two or three witnesses before judicial action can be taken. (2 Corinthians 13:1; 1 Timothy 5:19) Even if more than one person “remembers” abuse by the same individual, the nature of these recalls is just too uncertain to base judicial decisions on them without other supporting evidence. This does not mean that such “memories” are viewed as false (or that they are viewed as true). But Bible principles must be followed in establishing a matter judicially.
What if the one accused—though denying the wrongdoing—is really guilty? Does he “get away with it,” as it were? Certainly not! The question of his guilt or innocence can be safely left in Jehovah’s hands. “The sins of some men are publicly manifest, leading directly to judgment, but as for other men their sins also become manifest later.” (1 Timothy 5:24; Romans 12:19; 14:12) The book of Proverbs says: “The expectation of the righteous ones is a rejoicing, but the very hope of the wicked ones will perish.” “When a wicked man dies, his hope perishes.” (Proverbs 10:28; 11:7) Ultimately, Jehovah God and Christ Jesus render everlasting judgment in justice.—1 Corinthians 4:5.

BIGFOOT
I need a trim...

Registered: Mar 2002
Location:
Posts: 389
Protect Your Children!

PoohCorner
Member

Registered: Apr 2002
Location: 100 Acre Wood
Posts: 16
This was a very upsetting report. They didn't even try to give us the benefit of the doubt.
I can imagine there will be some fallout.

I know years ago, a few sisters I knew suffered as battered wives, and until the society came out with an article on it, and it became a disfellowshipping offense, the elders did little about it. It would be easy to be bitter. Harder to trust Jah and know that he will make things right in his due time.
I pray more than anything for Jehovah's precious name to be sanctified. This must be how Jesus felt before his death, when he was hurt at the thought of Jehovah's name being reproached by the false charges against him.

CaymanDM
Just lil old me

Registered: Dec 2001
Location: By the beach, Cali
Posts: 43
I saw the show and have some opinions on it. They did put a slant on our beliefs but there were a few areas that could be improved.

Unfortunately, the hardest part is reading the heart. The reality is that once a molester, always a molester (playing the numbers and odds). While having a lightening bolt come from the sky and neutralizing the person would be the best solution, it is not likely to happen.

This leaves the elders with the tough choice of reinstatement (after one is disfellowshipped). It is a no win situation. You can't say, "yes we read your heart and we know you aren't repentent or you have the propensity towards future wrongdoing."

There is no easy answer. The show did leave the impression that the practice being followed in the cases is to not inform the authorities. While the society leaves it up to the elders, elders are people and they are in a tough spot (as regards reinstatement).

This should be changed. Perhaps Jehovah can use the legal system to punish those and keep them away so that the elders will not have to deal with the issue.

There were quotes that the elders said that people should not go to the police because Jehovah would handle it. I believe that that view is naive. How can one say that Jehovah will not use the world's legal and judicial system?

Tomorrow I'll go to the Sheriffs department and look at the list of local perverts to see who they are and where they live.

I have 2 kids and would not want anything to happen to them. I would not hesitate to turn in anybody that attempted to harm my children. I fear nobody except Jehovah.

I hear that the society has sent a letter to all the congregations to be read this week. It will be interesting to hear that letter as well as see what changes are made.

I don't want to seem negative. This is a tough issue and I can see all viewpoints. I hope my candor was not too much. I'm hoping to engage in some intelligent conversation.

whistlebritches
Member

Registered: Jan 2002
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 246

CONCLUSION:

NBC cashing in on sensational subject, doing so to Satan's glee, just like any other form of persecution.

In my 40 yrs in the Truth, in numerous locations, the one brother disfellowshipped for child abuse went to jail immediatdly. Due to confidentiality, it was two years before I found out why.

I feel I must admit, the young sister's story made me feel sick. But EVEN IF some of what was said on Dateline was true, this is one MORE subject, like the stigma re mental health issues, that our Organization, our poor Brothers, & yes, Society as a whole, are daily learning more about coming to grips with.

Unfortunately, since ALL of mankind "misses the mark," it won't be dealt with perfectly, by anyone.

Beth

PoohCorner
Member

Registered: Apr 2002
Location: 100 Acre Wood
Posts: 16
Exactly, Beth. The organization's primary purpose is to carry out the worldwide preaching work, and care for the flock. As this system has deteriorated, they now have to try to handle all these very difficult and complex issues.

CandleintheSand
Member

Registered: Dec 2001
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 19

Dateline didn't air here afterall. We are in Mountain Standard Time and on cable television.

It was scheduled to come on at 9 PM but they had national basketball playoffs instead. When next checked it was to come on after the news at 10:30 but Jay Leno came on instead.

Just read on another post where congregations will be sent a letter from the organization. Will looking forward to that as letters from FDS are always so very special.

KEEP THE FAITH!

Marcheta
Member

Registered: Dec 2001
Location: Indianapolis
Posts: 61

We had the letter read at our Service Meeting
One of our elders read the letter from the Society tonight. Since I didn't bring my notes ustairs with me and am in too much physical pain (fibromyalgia) to type much, I will say that it was handled very well with MANY scriptures...it was emphasized that Jehovah's people in NO WAY hide nor protect perpetrators of this type of crime. I imagine that we will have a lot of fallout at the door and even with bible studies. I plan to be well prepared with my 2 students should they ask questions. I'm sure that one of the friends will post a much better comment than this, but just wanted you to know that the faithful slave is on top of it and had sent this letter out to ALL congregations less than a week ago..we'll be fine...Satan is just tweeking..the Catholics can't have all the news spots...the apostates and their "father" will see to that!!!
Heb.13:6

Indigo
Member

Registered: Jan 2002
Location: USA
Posts: 379

What a fantastic Daily Text for today, Wed. May 29. I could hardly believe it, especially following on the heels of the Dateline program. Who could have forseen the need for such a word of encouragement for his people but Jehovah. What a God Jehovah is!

I did prepare my students as soon as I became aware of the program. I expalained what disfellowshipping and apostasy was to the newer ones, and reviewed it with the ones I had already covered it with. The Reasoning book has a great section on apostasy.

The thng I found most interesting is that my studies and any worldly people I have discussed it with have shrugged it off as no big deal. The ones taking it the hardest are Jehovah's Witnesses and I believe it is because we care that things are done in a right way and so does the Society. In a world that is becoming more and more immoral and depraved it is a serious challenge for elders to deal with cases involving immorality. Refresher courses are helping elders to know how to deal with the issues and for the most part they are doing a great job.
If Satan demanded the apostles and disciples, in Jesus day,
to sift them why should we feel it would be any different for us today. Will this cause a sifting to take place in the congregations, possibly, but hopefully individuals have applied the council to strengthen themselves spiritually. If a person is going to be so easily sifted by a TV program, how are they going to make a stand when Satan makes his all out attack against Jehovah's Organization. Our brothers in other countries have been going through this kind of apostasy for years.

If some feel their faith is shaken now is the time to do something about it. How so very true are Paul's words at 1 Corinthians 3:12, 13 "For if anyone builds on the foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood materials, hay stubble, each one's work will become manifest for the day will show it up, because it will be revealed by means of fire, and the fire itself will prove what sort of work each one's is."

Iamfragile79
Member

Registered: Apr 2002
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 64
Re: We had the letter read at our Service Meeting

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Marcheta
Satan is just tweeking..the Catholics can't have all the news spots...the apostates and their "father" will see to that!!!
Heb.13:6
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ROFLROFL that is so true...Satan can't stand to see his flock look bad!

From Indigo:
Will this cause a sifting to take place in the congregations, possibly, but hopefully individuals have applied the council to strengthen themselves spiritually. If a person is going to be so easily sifted by a TV program, how are they going to make a stand when Satan makes his all out attack against Jehovah's Organization. Our brothers in other countries have been going through this kind of apostasy for years.
If some feel their faith is shaken now is the time to do something about it.

So very true. We've seen BIG shifts over the decades, and Jehovah has always weeded out those who who don't keep up. If more shifting happens now, He will take care of the shifters as He sees fit.

ariel
Ps. 104:33,34

Registered: Dec 2001
Location: Central FL
Posts: 49

I have choosen no to watch.. the show.. for many reasons..

I left Jehovahs organization.. once.. because of these issues... but would not speak against them....

I returned.. to Jehovah .. Because he is good! and it was really my lack of faith.. in his timing.. not ... what the brothers did .. or did not do... that really mattered for me personally..

Sometimes Jehovah allows... things to continue for a time.. to help us.. grow.. and possibly... for bigger reasons we can not.. understand..

Jehovah says.. clearly protect your children from real harm... I have had to painfully do that! ... even though I was considered a rebellious wife.. because I had to take a stand.. for my children .. despite.. lacking two witnesses...

This.. Crime is a hidden crime.. one only done in the shadows... and usually with much ... mental... cruelty.. towards the victim.. (shaming and balming.. or down right.. terror... so the victims remain.. silent.. and distorted..)

And Many times.. all that the legal system.. and the Cong.. judicial system... can do.. it nothing... really... not because they don't want to.. or don't believe you.. or the victim.. but because... of the rules .. and laws.. the perp.. is well aware or.. and thus remains... hidden..

But the bottom line again is...

Simply... Where are our loyalties... Who do we trust... Jehovah will remove.. all the wicked.. and he will stop.. any who harm his children... in his time!

Are we willing to wait.. on him... Are we willing to trust.. that he knows the truth... and will set ALL matters straight...

in Satans system... there is really no real way to protect your children fully.... that is the reality... we all live in... day after day...

But There will be an end... to it all! is that what we focus on.. or do we focus.. on what is wrong now... yes.. elder make mistakes.. and yes.. they don't handle all cases... the best way... But does that mean Jehovah did not see it all! No He did... and he will Solve it all!

in his time..

cheerful
Member

Registered: Dec 2001
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 349

One of the hardest things to face is injustice in the truth. What we sometimes forget is that injustice has existed among God's servants throughout the ages.

Joseph was sold into slavery by his own brothers. How unjust was that? David had to run for his life because God's anointed one King Saul wanted to kill him. Peter was reprimanded because he showed favortism of the Jews over the Gentiles. The point is our brothers are imperfect and do not always handle things in a skillful way either through not understanding or pride, but we can rest assured that Jehovah is well aware of all of our sufferings and he will rescue the broken hearted ones. It requires trust and faith in Jehovah's way of handling things.

An illustration I heard once was that the truth is like a forest that when observed from a distance is beautiful and majestic and awe inspiring and yet when you get into the forest you see the burned out trees and deformed trees and the weak trees and yet the forest is still a beautiful sight to behold. We know through our studies that this is the truth and Jehovah is using imperfect humans to make up his organization and in time through the application of the ransom we will all be delivered from Satan's wicked system.

What we can do now is comfort one another as we draw closer to the end of this system.

Janet

ManofTrueGod
Administrator

Registered: Dec 2001
Location: Manila, Philippines
Posts: 208

I once had a complaint against a brother who molested a Bible Study of his. The man came to us and reported the incident. We thanked him for his initiative. We told him that we want the congregation to remain clean and we will expel unrepentant wrongdoers. The accused brother denied it. And due to the principle of "two witnesses", we explained to the man that we cannot resolve the matter within the congregation. However, we told him that we are not discouraging him to pursue the matter outside the congregation and through the legal system if he wishes to pursue it. The matter ended at that point.

The accused brother lost his privileges later for other offenses.

In another instance, where a young girl working as a domestic helper reported an offense by an older brother, we promptly acted on the complaint, the older brother confessed but minimized that the the incident was accidental and not intentional. The brother was disciplined. The young girl left the home.

I am only sharing this so that we reinforce and confirm the fact that we don't have a policy of protecting, coddling, or hiding such crimes.

8thchild
Member

Registered: Apr 2002
Location: Woodinville, WA
Posts: 15
CaymanDM...

I appreciate what you wrote concerning your feelings on the program and the issue of sexual abuse. The Elders are truly in a tough spot. One thing I noticed on the program is that not all states require the clergy to report such offenses to the police. I felt this was wrong in the cases involving the Catholic Church, and thus I feel it is wrong in this case as well. It is the secular law that must be changed, as well as more education for our dear Elders. I think the program failed to show how our elders are not put on some high and mighty pedestal, as our the clergy of Christendom. We know that they are merely imperfect humans, trying to do God's will.

It is all so heart wrenching. I pray that the victims (on the program) find peace and return to Jehovah. In harboring anger and bitterness they only hurts themselves.

I did notice one thing...the program seemed to insinuate that the bible council was at fault. I wonder how many picked up on that accusation against God's Word. There goes satan again, blaming GOD!

2WillowTree
Member

Registered: Jan 2002
Location: I live in Dallas/FortWorth Texas
Posts: 117
I too left the truth for 10 years. I and my children were abused. The three Elders on the comittee did nothing. I received comfort from a visiting Circuit Overseer that was sent to our congregation to subsitute for our CO who couldn't come.

This CO understood what I was going through as he was raised in an alcoholic household and was under verbal abuse from his Dad. He gave me his personal phone number and said to call if I needed to talk to someone.

One night I was crying so hard that my stomach hurt and I had no more tears to shed. I called him and he said something that changed my life.

I wanted to die, this was too much to endure. At the time I was a regular pioneer.

He said "You can't serve Jehovah if you are dead". Then he said to me, " You know, Sister, you have a weakness that is a fault, you are a follower of men rather than God!" I was shocked by his statement. The fact that I stayed in my situation, waiting for the elders to see and understand, was costing me my life! I cared more about what they thought of me, rather than Jehovah.
He told me to be like David. who respected King Saul, yet fled for his life, I too must flee.

Other Elders in my congregation helped me and the congregation I moved to, in another state, helped also. Sad to tell you, after I left, I kept trying to write to the committee and to help them see the wrong, they didn't respond and refused to speak to the congregation I was now in, saying "none of your business". The strain was too much and I left the truth for 10 years. One of my sons left also, never to return.

The words of this CO haunts me to this day. I should of let it go, suffer and concentrate to get strong. I wish I let it in Jehovah's hands. Because of my insistance on geting justice, I lost 10 years. Never again.

LadyHollman
Member

Registered: Dec 2001
Location: Maryland
Posts: 87
Well, I'll say that I did not find the show to be full of sensationalism or blatant bias.

I feel that a gross criminal matter is best dealt with by people who are trained to investigate such matters. Elders try and do provide needed encouragement but they aren't psycho-analysts. I also don't feel the need to prematurely 'label' people because they may have been through some trying times in their personal lives at the hands of a few wicked.

We are concerned with Jehovah's name being maligned...but for those (who snuck in among us like weeds) who may have committed these dispicable atrocities do we think they share our concerns for Jehovah's name?

IMHO, the reproach on Jehovah's name isn't the exposing of a 'wicked' man/woman among us, its the allowing of a continued 'wicked deed' and said perpetrating persons to carry Jehovah's name...in vain...carrying it in a "worthless way".

In the end, each and everyone of us has to answer directly to Jehovah for what we have and have not done in showing true love for one another....and for His righteous standards.

Anyway, that was my take of the show.

2WillowTree
Member

Registered: Jan 2002
Location: I live in Dallas/FortWorth Texas
Posts: 117

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I did notice one thing...the program seemed to insinuate that the bible council was at fault. I wonder how many picked up on that accusation against God's Word. There goes satan again, blaming GOD!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I saw it differently. There MUST be scriptures that we are not aware of. We don't understand how to apply Jehovah's word in this situation. The issue of child abuse is to apply a principle of action. It wasn't too many years ago the Society's viewpoint of going to a counselor was like " going down to Egypt for help" and it was discouraged. Now we are begininng to understand how the mind works and emotions. We changed our views, based on having more insight.

I have had flashbacks of abuse. It was only then, that I learned what it is like to experience it. I did research and my Doctor has taught me how the mind works. I hope that the Society is learning to take more seriously the person experiencing flashbacks. First, to comfort, which they already have advised, but now, to not stumble, or make 'light' of the pain the person is enduring. There is an outrage of an act that Jehovah detests, they need to also express THAT KIND of concern.

In flashbacks, when they start, it is not clear what one is 'seeing'. It takes time, to get it clear, sometimes it is never clear. The person you think is involved may not be. You begin receiving bits and pieces, sometimes those pieces never make a clear picture. The point is...it is real. Something happined.

who's a member of PLN in here?

mommy_rose

Elsewhere

Elsewhere

mommy_rose

ChiChiMama

mikepence

mommy_rose

Yerusalyim

Hmmm

waiting

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