What is truth?

by Heisenberg 114 Replies latest jw friends

  • jhine
    jhine

    Heisenberg, 

         I have not read all the posts and may be restating some points . However , your O P really intersted me as a neveraJW Trinitarian . As a Christian I am not given a free pass on this site ,anyone claiming faith  of any sort is debated with and sometimes insulted or mocked . (Not by everyone on here but it does happen ) . 

    Now some of your other points , you are making the mistake of believing everything you are told by the WT . The Great Commision of taking the Gospel to the ends of the earth is taken very seriously by all Christian groups . There are MANY interdenomiational faith groups in every far flung place on the globe preaching the Gospel message . I cannot give figures at the moment but the idea that Christendom does not do worldwide preaching work is totally a JW lie . 

    You say that the WT is still right despite all the false prophecies ! I quote Ezekiel 13 about false prophets -

    " There visions are false and their predictions lies .They claim they are speaking my message , but I have not sent them . Yet they expect their message to come true . I tell them : Those visions you see are false and the predictions you make are lies . You say that they are my words , but I haven't spoken to you !" 

    so the sovereign Lor says to them "Your words are false and your visions are lies . I am against you . I am about to punish you prophets who have false visions and make misleading predictions .... "  

    Jehovah says much about false prophets and non of it is good . 

    Christmas , as others have pointed out is celebrated by non Christians who have no faith just because it is fun .

    Christians celebrate Christmas in honour of Christ . Colossians 2 : 15 on 

    "And on that cross Christ freed Himself from th power of the spiritual rulers and authorities ; He made a public spectacle of them by leading them as captives in His victory procession .

    So let no one make rules about what you eat or drink or about holy days or the New Moon festival or the Sabbath ,. All such things are only a shadow of things in the future . The reality is Christ . Do not allow yourselves to be condemmed by anyone who claims to be superior because of special visions and who insists on false humility and the worshi of angels . " 

    You can read the rest for yourself . 

    Also 

    romans 14: 5 ( The whole of this chapter is about judging the behaviour of other ) 

    " One person thinks that a certain day is more important than other days , while someone else thinks that all days are same . Each one one should firmly make up his own mind . Whoever thinks highly of a cetain day does so in honour of the Lord ; whoever will eat anything does so in honour of the Lord , because he gives thanks to the LOrd for the food .Whoever refuses to eat cetain things does so in honour of the Lord and he gives thanks to Jehovah "  

    Your statement that if the Watchtower has it wrong then there is no God is only Watchtower propagander designed to stop people from joining any other faith group , an example of their control policy . It does seem to work judging by the amount who leave and become atheists , a sort of "if we can't have you no one will " policy 

                      Jan 





  • Heisenberg
    Heisenberg

    A few more replies to those that have posted since my last post.


    Posted By THE GLADIATOR

    it is inevitable that some members are unable to feel love for people who are not part of their organization.
    Wow. That is absurd. I have never met a witness who is unable to feel love for non JWs because of their faith.

    Posted by Ucantnome
    I think my life would have been different if I had pursued what I am good at.

    Why didn't you? You must take full responsibility for that decision. You cannot blame your parents, friends or your cousin for the decision that you ultimately made. I think it is naive to say that an organization was responsible for the way your life turned out.

    Posted by Phizzy

    The Misogynistic, Homophobic, pro-Slavery "morality" of the Bible is not good enough for the 21st Century.

    Yes, that may be true if you do not have faith in the bible. But for those that profess their trust in God and the bible, they must take it all as it is. You can't call yourself a Christian and then at the same time condone the practice of homosexuality. The two are not compatible.

    Posted By Vidqun

    A good example is the nation of Israel. What happened to them when they made alliances with the nations? The prophets Isaiah and Jeremiah had a lot to say about it.

    JWs did not make an alliance with the UN. They registered with a certain department to obtain information. Yes, in hindsight, it was a mistake. But it is the exception to the rule. JWs rank and file and the Org continue to remain neutral.

    Posted by THE GLADIATOR

    We make decisions on information that we receive from what we believe to be a reliable source. In this case an organization that claims to be appointed by God. If it turns out that the 'reliable source' is just a bunch of liars, any scorn should be directed at them and not their victims. That is how the law works in any civilized country.

    What made you believe it was a reliable source? The 'lies' have been there before you joined but you didn't realize at the time. Maybe you were just easily deceived. Isn't it really your own fault? And which country has an actual law that allows you to scorn anyone who deceived you? Caveat emptor!

    Posted by EdenOne

    Very few ex-JWs argue that is wrongful that the congregation is entitled to terminate fellowship with those who refuse to comply with the rules, moral or doctrinal. However, shunning is another matter.

    Do you think it would be better to expel them from the congregation but still allow them to socialize with the members of the congregation? How would that work? What effect would the expulsion have if they are still allowed to keep in contact with everyone? It would be pointless.

    If someone violated the rules of this forum, what do you think Simon would do? As has happened in the past, he would disable their account to stop them from contaminating the board.

    Posted by EndofMysteris

    I believe in God or a God because when I see all life, plants, the cycles on the Earth, etc, I see intelligent design.

    If matter is eternal, can't be created or destroyed but changed in one form or another, how is that easier to believe then God having always been (neither created or destroyed).  

    Your two statements above are a contradiction. If the earth and everything in it is evidence of intelligent design, then wouldn't you expect that an intelligent creator would be even more evidence that it must have been created by an intelligent designer of its own?

    The bible says after Jesus leaves it would be the spirit that would guide people, not a physical temple, from what I've read it seems the bible teaches truth can't be found with people but they can encourage when you meet and associate with like minded.  

    The bible says a lot and it is left up to people to interpret its meaning. Since everyone has their own opinion, they cant all be right. Not all these 'good people' who have love among themselves are right. They cant all have the truth.

    Posted By goingthruthemotions

    Spoke like a true JWombie....the B.I.T.E model is in full effect. hope one day you see the light.

    If you look into the so called BITE model, during different periods of history it can be applied to most religions and still for many religions today. Especially, one very large one.

    And never say never. Why is your mind so closed? Seems like your are just like any other regular JW. Don't let your emotions control you.

    Posted by OnTheWayOut

    As far as your opinion that everyone would get to choose from two (or three) possible belief systems, who are you to decide.  People can do/believe all kinds of things.

    That is just my opinion. I get to decide because it is my opinion but it doesn't mean I am correct. I never said I was right, that is why I said it was my opinion. You say "people can believe all kinds of things", then why do JWs get a verbal bashing for what they beleive in. If it is OK for 99.9% of the population to beleive in their particular lies, why cant the other 1% continue to beleive in their lie?

    Posted by Vidqun

    Judge for yourself whether these are applied correctly.

    Who am I to decide if these are applied correctly? The bible is open to interpretation. You cannot be right on the meaning of these scriptures any more than a member of the GB is right.

    Because most cases are handled internally, they are never sorted out and the victims do not get the necessary counselling or treatment - thus no closure.

    I agree that there have been many mistakes made in the handling of the cases involving pedophilia. I don't understand why the parents would not take this matter to the police themselves. This responsibility rests with the parents and they should be going directly to the police. Anyone that tries to stop them should be put in their place.

    Posted by jhine

    The Great Commision of taking the Gospel to the ends of the earth is taken very seriously by all Christian groups . There are MANY interdenomiational faith groups in every far flung place on the globe preaching the Gospel message . I cannot give figures at the moment but the idea that Christendom does not do worldwide preaching work is totally a JW lie .

    Sorry, but I will need some evidence to believe this. Which religion and how many countries are they in? How many languages do they preach in? How many bibles have they translated? Worldwide means across the entire earth not just a select group of countries.

    Your statement that if the Watchtower has it wrong then there is no God is only Watchtower propagander designed to stop people from joining any other faith group , an example of their control policy . It does seem to work judging by the amount who leave and become atheists , a sort of "if we can't have you no one will " policy

    I don't remember the 'Watchtower' ever writing this anywhere or relaying it from the platform. The reason I mentioned this in my previous post is because every other main stream religion in this world is not teaching their followers to live in harmony with the bible. Their beliefs are not in harmony with what the bible teaches. If the JWs can be proved wrong (which they have), the others don't stand a chance either. If you believe that there are other religions that are right, then you are just as deluded as the JWs who you attack on this website.

  • Ucantnome
    Ucantnome
    Why didn't you?

    Because i had faith in the good news that we preached. At the time I was also living at home and had been raised as a witness. My parents would not have been in favour of my further education which would have shown a lack of faith in the nearness of the end as, those i have been raised to view as,  Christ's brothers were informing us was the case. My salvation, i believed, depended on doing good to Christ's brothers and the primary way i understood was assisting them in the life saving work of preaching the good news.

    I think it is naive to say that an organization was responsible for the way your life turned out.

    I think in explaining my choice and the reasons why I made the decisions I made is not a case of not taking responsibiity for them. I would be much more careful now in paying attention to anything from Jehovah's Witnesses and making decisions based on the information (spiritual food) recieved. 

    the word coercion springs to mind when i think of how i felt when I was a young witness. although i felt that it was the best way to pioneer and serve Jehovah i also felt that my doing so was important for me to survive Armageddon and although I have faith in God I now recognise that we are all different and we don't need to feel guilty for not being a pioneer/ministerial servant/elder or wanting to be one.

  • Heaven
    Heaven

    What is truth?

    Pray More + Wait on Jehovah = Nothing Gets Done and People Get Hurt/Sick/Dead

  • EdenOne
    EdenOne
    Heisenberg: Do you think it would be better to expel them from the congregation but still allow them to socialize with the members of the congregation? How would that work? What effect would the expulsion have if they are still allowed to keep in contact with everyone? It would be pointless. 

    Your reply shows how formatted you are by the JW's teachings. This is what the Watchtower Library won't tell you:

    In the early days of the Christian congregations (at least those who were started by Paul, and those are the ones we're best informed about, because that's the strain of Christianity that ended up triumphant), the congregational gatherings took place, not in Kingdom Halls, but in private homes. Those meetings had two parts: The symposium and the eucharistia.

    The first part, the symposium, was opened to everyone, including unbelievers. (check 1 Cor 14:24) One, or several baptized members addressed the congregation with dissertations about Jesus' life, their faith and hope, readings from the Torah and the Prophets, accounts from the apostles' deeds, letters from other congregations, preaching, "speaking in tongues", prophesying, healings. In many cases there were itinerant preachers who would visit congregations and would receive hospitality from the congregation - often that hospitality was extended by the Christian family in which household the meetings were regularly held. - See an example of that in Acts 15:1, 32

    The second part, the eucharistia, was reserved for the initiated - baptized - members of the congregation, and consisted of a simple shared meal, with bread and wine and prayer (mandatory, for they were the symbols of Christ's body and blood), plus some optional items such as vegetables and fish. Only baptized members of the congregation were present in the gathering room at this time, and this meal was their symbolic participation in the "blood and body" of the Lord. It was the fellowship at this table meal that symbolized an individual's belonging to the Christian congregation, what separated him/her from the unbelievers that were left out in this feature.

    As you can imagine, the "two hopes" doctrine of 1935 created a second class of Christians with earthly hope that no longer partook of the emblems. This has no biblical support, for in the first century and beyond every baptized Christian participated from the table fellowship of the eucharistia. More, this communal mean took place on every weekly gathering, usually on Sunday evenings, NOT once a year as is our practice. (There are reasons for this, but they're too long to explain here). 

    With this in mind, you can better understand the context of Paul and John's admonishments regarding unrepentant transgressors and how they were to be treated by the congregation. When someone was expelled from the congregation, the table fellowship ended - that person was no longer to partake in the eucharistia, or symbolically, no longer sharing in the body and blood of Jesus Christ as baptized Christians commonly didThis is what Paul was talking when he wrote: "Not even eating with such people" (1 Cor 5:11). That was the sort of fellowship that should cease. It doesn't mean that the members of the congregation should shun that person or cut communication with him/her. Otherwise, Paul would be contradicting himself when he wrote: "take special note of that person and do not associate with him, so that he will be put to shame. Yet do not regard him as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother." (2 Tes 3:14, 15) How would the members of the congregation 'stop associating with' while at the same time 'admonish him as a brother'? How can you do that unless you communicate with that person, and still consider that person as a brother? Note also that the admonishing wasn't restricted to the congregation episkopos, or elders, as Jehovah's Witnesses practice nowadays. Everyone was to treat that person as a brother, and everyone should keep on admonishing the errant, for which one needs to keep communicating with. Clearly, the command to 'stop associating with' is not a command to shun, but a command to withdraw that person from the eucharistia, which would be a form of discipline by shame, because such person, who previously enjoyed such fellowship, was now being invited to leave before the congregation partake on the eucharistia, their symbol of union and fellowship with Jesus Christ. 

    You can also understand what John said: "If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house and do not give him any greeting, because the person who gives him a greeting shares in his evil deeds." (2 John 1:11) Consider the context of this letter: To whom was John writing? He was writing to a prominent individual Christian woman and mother, possibly wealthy, who held Christian meetings at her house. (2 John 1:1, 5, 10) He wasn't writing to an entire congregation nor to the Christian congregation at large. His instructions were meant for the person who hosted Christian gatherings at her dwelling place. As I said above, this "Lady" - possibly a wealthy widow - would frequently host itinerant preachers at her house who would then be invited to address the congregation during the weekly symposium. As there were many new, 'unauthorized' versions of Christianity circulating already, including the Ebionites, and several brands of proto-gnosticism, John cautioned this Christian Lady against inviting such deviant preachers into her house [as guests] and into the gatherings held at her house [as guest speakers/teachers/prophets]. So, the command "do not receive him into your house" wasn't about the social aspect of the interaction, but, rather, about stopping them from acting as teachers of doctrine in her house and in her congregation. What about "greeting"? Again, consider the cultural context: In the first century middle east, the most common greeting form would involve a form of "May God Bless You", or "God Speed", or "God Be With You"; This sort of greeting implied that the greeter was giving his blessing to the one that was being greeted. In this case, if the itinerant preacher was teaching falsehood, to greet him with "God Bless You" [instead of rebuking him] was a way to partake in his sinful teaching work. That's why John said "the person who gives him a greeting shares in his evil deeds". Nowadays the situation is entirely different. A simple "Hello", or "How are you?" or "Give my regards to your family" objectively doesn't mean we're offering our blessing to 'false teachings' or agree with them in any measure or form. Only religious propaganda of hate constructs it in such a way. Plus, as it's plain to see, John's command involved - at best- only apostasy, and not any other form of transgression; therefore, it's 'going beyond what's written' to interpret it as a blanket instruction on how to treat disfellowshipped people for any kind of sin.

    Even Jesus didn't shun sinners, as you well know. If the disciples were to become imitators of Jesus, then when he told them to treat unrepentant transgressors as "heathen men and tax collectors" (Mat 18:17) - well, how did Jesus treated non-israelites and tax collectors? Did he shun them? Or kindly interacted with them, even sharing a meal with Zaccaheus and healing a Greek woman's daughter in Tyre? Hence, he set the finest example of compassion towards sinners. (See Luke 19:5-7; Mark 7:25-30)

    There could be a lot more to say about this subject, because it goes even deeper than this, but this will suffice, I hope. You have been fed partial information by the Watchtower; the important bits that are at odds with their doctrine are simply omitted or misrepresented in the publications. This is why it's so important to educate yourself outside the WT publications and libraries.

    The Watchtower is wrong about shunning transgressors. And the depth of their error is so big, that they cannot afford to change it without opening a doctrinal can of worms, as you can see by the above. The Bible doesn't support shunning, plain simply. Contrary to Watchtower's claims, shunning isn't an act of love, it's an act of hate. And hate is unchristian.

    Eden

  • OnTheWayOut
    OnTheWayOut

    Your answer to me: That is just my opinion. I get to decide because it is my opinion but it doesn't mean I am correct. I never said I was right, that is why I said it was my opinion. 

    Okay then.  Never mind.  

    Your question to me: You say "people can believe all kinds of things", then why do JWs get a verbal bashing for what they beleive in.

    This is a forum about Jehovah's Witnesses.  I could easily "bash" some other set of beliefs, but life is short and I stick to this subject as much as possible here.  My point was that your attempt to boil all things down to 2 or 3 options doesn't fit reality.  As a matter of fact, it pretty much sounds like the typical western "Christianity-or-Evolution" narrow-mindedness.  There are so many different ways to believe and so many different ways to not believe.  You had just come from bashing former JW's from celebrating Christmas as if they must not do so because they, of all people, should know that it is the "darkest pit of deception,"  that "Christmas has nothing to do with Jesus," and they are "trad[ing] one set of lies for another."  You totally leave out the idea that people know better and enjoy the holiday anyway.  

    I just want to open your mind to at least try to see other ideas out there.  Oh, I don't accept most of the ideas that involve belief and I don't accept most ideas that involve ancient alien astronauts planting mankind on earth or forcing the evolution of the primates, but we at least have to be aware of the various thoughts before we try to bottle everything up in "what Christian religion can you turn to if you still believe in God?"  

    I am a basher of those with firm beliefs that insist that others must think or do as those insisting.  My greatest growth occurred after researching (and dismissing) the Bible, then went on to Taoism and Zen Buddhism thoughts.  The thing I took to heart most about eastern thought was that I don't have to be right, I don't have to know everything, and I don't even have to embrace all of the eastern beliefs in order to benefit from the wisdom I do accept.   

  • Ucantnome
    Ucantnome

    just a little addition to my last post.

    Here http://www.strictlygenteel.co.uk/booklets/look.html

    I found the booklet that i believe was the first thing my parents studied when they became Jehovah's Witnesses. I do not have a copy of it myself. However on page 27 toward the end it says this,

    Your safety and the whole future of yourself and your family depend on now studying the Bible, associating with the New World society of Jehovah's witnesses, dedicating yourself to your Creator, Jehovah God, and witnessing for him. Do not let the pursuit of material things or the cares of life rob you of this wonderful opportunity of life. 

    My parents I think believed this and did witness believing their safety and mine was connected to being a Witness. It was the 'truth' 

    When they first became Witnesses they were taught the Great Tribulation had started in 1914, when this changed they believed that 6000 years of a 7000 year creative day ended in 1975 and the generation that saw the establishment of the Messianic kingdom was well along in years and would not pass away before the Great Tribulation, that hadn't started in 1914, started.This was all the truth. I believe the generation teaching was part of the good news, that's why it was in the Awake magazine front cover. As I showed in my post earlier, a few pages back, how what Paul said regarding the 'good news' was applied to what Jehovah's Witnesses have preached and faith. The 'good news' should be the truth and not need to be changed.

    My parents don't give the truth any thought now. They don't give anything any thought now.

  • Vidqun
    Vidqun

    Heisenberg, thanks for explaining to us your opinion of JW-UN membership. I wish I can dismiss their little mistakes so easily. I am not as forgiving. I live by the motto: You either practice what you preach, or you shut up. Interestingly, Awake-articles from that era glorified the UN, so they must have made some sort of a deal with the UN. Or is it a case of: You cannot belong to the UN as a NGO if you write bad things about them in your literature. 

    So much for that little mistake. Perhaps you can explain to us the involvement of the JWs with the OSCE? Go to the OSCE's website and see what type of organization it is. The different JW associations are NGOs of the OSCE. JW representatives give talks at OSCE meetings. All for the good of the brothers, of course. And  the theocratic warfare-principle allows them to lie about it without blinking or blushing. What a happifying people! 

    Just a pity if one of the R&F becomes a member of a political party or an organization (like the Y.M.C.A.) that person is disfellowshipped if unrepentant. I see some double standards here, don't you?  

  • Vidqun
    Vidqun

    By the way, I found this little gem, while looking up those scriptures JWs use to disfellowship people. Have you heard of Hymenaeus and Philetus? Paul ordered these men to be shunned. Why? They have deviated from the truth by saying "the resurrection has already occurred." Now where have we heard that before? I'll give you a clue. It has been asserted that this has been happening since 1919. Here's the quote: 

    15 Do your utmost to present yourself approved to God, a workman with nothing to be ashamed of, handling the word of the truth aright.

     16 But shun empty speeches that violate what is holy; for they will advance to more and more ungodliness,

     17 and their word will spread like gangrene. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of that number.

     18 These very [men] have deviated from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already occurred; and they are subverting the faith of some. (2Ti 2:15-18 NWT)

  • EdenOne
    EdenOne

    Vidqun, regarding the shunning practice; even that text proves that what is to be shunned is the teaching [or the sinful practice], not the person.

    Eden

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