by Heisenberg 114 Replies latest jw friends
What is a lie but a misrepresentation of reality? A funhouse mirror.
A direct one on one matchup between the description of something, and of the thing being described= truth.
Distortion arrives rather invisibly.
THE TRUTH is not the same thing as
THE WHOLE TRUTH which is not the same thing as
NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH.
Think about that sometime. . .
This has been a fascinating Thread for me. From the opening Post by Heisenburg (welcome to the Forum by the way), to the last rather smart-arse one by Terry *, it has been so far a very enlightening look backward for me.
I can see, in the attitude of the opening poster many of the thoughts I may have expressed had I come here as an active JW.
I can see too, the Posters who have travelled a similar road to me, and so many others. Eden1 for example.
"It's really nice to see how much you've changed, grown and developed since you first began posting here!", I echo what Oubliette said here.
Maybe too, Heisenburg, if he/she sticks around, may change, grow and develop, but it takes a combination of courage and humility to achieve what Eden1 has.
It could be that our Opening Poster may be put off by Cantleave's comment, that we may not give a shite about a JW's opinion, I hope not, because it was that kind of comment that shook me out of my complacent, arrogant views when I first came on this Site, I was aborn-in JW after all, but as I said, you do need that quality of humility, to realise that you just may not have the whole picture, so that you can "change, grow and develop ".
* Terry, don't take offense at me calling your comment "smart-arsed", I mean that in the way of a little jibe, it's just that you are a long way down the road to Truth, and new friends like Heisenburg may not pick up on the import of what you say.
You know, looking back, even though some rather caustic comments were squared at me by Cofty, Cantleave, Entirely Possible, Adamah, Focus and others, it turned out to be for the best. Once the dust of outraged indignation settled, I could quietly go back and ponder on them. I wish to say to you guys, thank you for challenging me. It has helped me to develop my own critical thinking skills and re-evaluate my entire belief system, even the one that I temporarily attempted to develop. Also, a fond mention of Leolaia, Blondie, Barbara Anderson, JGnat, Terry and Marvin Shilmer. We never had much exchange, but your posts have been of enormous value to me. Thank you.
I still don't know where this trip will ultimately lead into - if anywhere - but I sure know damn well where I never want to go back to. We may never agree on certain things, but at least we agree that we have been deceived, abused, exploited and cheated on by this religion who turned us into religious addicts for life. I suspect that, even when we leave it all behind, a stain will always lurk in the dephts of us, ready to lure us back. That is something that, like someone who has overcome substance abuse, we will always have to keep under check. But in the meantime, to you all, my deepest respect and thank yous.
Eden
T-shirt:
Change horse to 'arse.'
Thank you to everyone for their comments. I didn’t come here to defend any JW doctrines but I will try and reply to everyone’s comments. BTW, I didn’t say I was an active JW or if I believe in God.
Whatever you now believe is not necessarily the truth just because you believe it. I sense that many who are ex-JWs now feel that whatever they now believe (whatever that may be) is actually the truth. Why? How did you prove that your current beliefs are correct? Are you using the same thinking process that led you to believe that JWs were correct?
Posted by Vanderhoven7
Jesus is The Truth. He is the gospel;
That is your opinion but it is not a fact. Why is Jesus the truth? Why do you believe in the Bible? Why do you believe in a creator?
Posted by Witness My Fury
Welcome, Why have you been lurking? What brought you here? Note: your opinions are liable to change in the face of evidence, if they are not then you are a fool. So whatever your opinion is now, you could come back in a year or so and read this thread and marvel at how little you knew. Well you will if you are at all honest with yourself.
I stumbled upon this site and I thought I would check it out. I did not come here to defend any JW doctrines. And yes, you are correct... opinions can change.
Posted by LostGeneration
Hmm, so nobody is allowed to change their opinion about others? When I was a JW, I was a judgemental douchebag. Fact.
I did not say that your opinion of them should not change. I said that they should not be degraded or belittled. If apostates do not like to be called mentally diseased by JWs then why do they feel it is OK to disrespect JWs? I would expect those who have been enlightened by the TTATT would be more understanding and treat others the way they would like to be
While I give JWs a pass on many items because they are under mind control, I no longer give disgusting behaviors like shunning a free pass. It would be worse if I continued to condone such simply because it is part of their belief system. If their belief system is wrong in my opinion, I'm allowed to say so.
Why is the issue of shunning a problem? If the bible was very clear about who should be shunned and how this should be done, would that be more acceptable to you? Human society has always shunned people that do not conform to the rules. If you commit a crime, you may be punished by being sent to jail and excluded from society until you 'repent' by changing your attitude. Who determines these rules? In many lands, adultery and homosexuality are still punishable by death or jail. It is up to each group of people to decide the rules and the consequences for breaking them. Wasn't the great schism of the Catholic church an act of shunning?
Posted by Magnum
They should know other religions. How can they know they have the truth if they don't know what other religions teach? They would "do something different" because they should have brains and common sense and discernment and questioning minds and be able to recognize that something's wrong.
This would mean that all people should realize what they are doing something wrong and need to change. That's not reality. Someone who has been brought up a certain way and never exposed to anything else, will not change. Or if that person has been told to not even allow themselves to think differently, will not do it unless there is a disruption. In the same way that most people ignore JWs when they knock on their door and want to accept the existing beliefs, JWs do the same.
Your opinion is wrong.
Why? Is there a fact to show that my opinion is wrong? Or is it someone else's subjective thoughts on the bible that would be used to prove me wrong?
You have no logical basis for stating that. That's like saying JWs are right even though they're wrong. There is a mountain of evidence to indicate that JWs are wrong and do not have the truth and would not be approved by god (if there is one).
Logic? We are discussing religion. There is no logic. Yes, JWs have been wrong and will continue to be wrong on certain beliefs. They don't know everything. But every other religion and belief system out there is not 100% correct. There is no such thing.
There are other factors involved such as the freedom one has to leave if he chooses and the consequences of leaving. Also involved is the degree to which information is controlled, the degree to which members are isolated, etc.
So would that make Islam a cult? If a Muslim converts to another religion, do you think that is acceptable? How do you think they are treated? What about those from mainstream Christian religions that convert to JWs? Are they not ostracized for converting? I know of many. And let's not forget the Spanish Inquisition. Those who wanted to leave the Church did not really have the freedom to do so. So Catholics must have been part of a cult back then. But I assume that if a religion has hundreds of millions of followers, they cant be considered a cult...
Posted by NVR2L8
I feel no urge to silence him, call him names such as mentally diseased or assume that he supports Satan...do you get my drift?
Yes, but those on this site seem to treat JWs in the same way.
Posted by Vidqun
One must practice what one preaches. This is especially true of religion. If you find out a religious group says one thing and practices another, that would be hypocritical. E.g. if you call the UN "the disgusting thing causing desolation" and "the beast that ascends from the abyss" and you join them for the sake of a library card, there is something seriously wrong with your reasoning.
Does that mean that the JWs could never register with any government organization to have access to certain information? JWs have been taught that all worldly governments are under Satan’s control. The UN and the governments of the world are really just one and the same. Maybe they didn’t realize they were agreeing with the UNs objectives when they signed up. But I’m sure the JW organization needs to register with government organisations to get things done… would you be OK if they did this?
When they say they care about children and also protect the pedophiles that prey on them, then the time has come for you to examine yourself and your religion. Perhaps your religion is straying from the truth. What are you going to do about it? Are you going to go with the flow, or are you going to make your reservations known? By the way, if you choose to go with the flow, you will remain in good standing with the organization. However, if you choose to make your reservations known, you will be disfellowshipped.
Yes, there is room for improvement. The fact that there are issues does not mean that everything they teach is wrong according to the bible.
Posted by Theredeemer
Perhaps many ex JWs begin to celebrate Christmas because they realize that it is a harmless holiday. To call it the "deepest, darkest pit" is a little overboard.
I didn’t mean that Christmas is that but that the lies that comes forth from religion. Christmas is just an example. But if you are happy to go from one lie to another just because it isn’t as harmless, then that’s fine. People will always find a way to justify what they do.
Why not? Please explain.
What makes them more accurate in the teaching of bible truths? For all the things faults you have found with JWs, the other religions are just as bad… if not worse.
Please give examples other than preaching (which we know others do and JWs preaching nothing close to what Jesus or even Paul preached).
Most Christian religions accept that you can commit fornication, adultery, homosexuality, etc and remain a Christian even without repentance. It is accepted.
Prove it with specific examples and concrete evidence.
Evidence? You cannot use facts and evidence when it comes to religion. There is no evidence that God exists or that the bible is truth. Religion is all about faith. Most of the time blind faith.
Posted by OneEyeJoe
If a drug addict cleans up his life and proceeds to insist that his friend do the same, is he a hypocrite or a good friend?
Insisting a friend clean up his life is different to treating a JW with disrespect.
This model of a cult was written by a man who had no exposure to JWs (but was, for a time, in the moonie cult). He identified common traits that all cults feature. See if anything seems familiar to you:
https://freedomofmind.com//Info/BITE/bitemodel.php
So how many of these criteria must be true for it to be classified a cult? I can see many here that can be attributed to other main stream religions.
Posted by Oubliette
Your conclusion does not follow from your premise.
One could just as easily say:
• if a personal God does exist, a caring and loving God, then Catholics do have ‘the truth’ regardless of ...
• if a personal God does exist, a caring and loving God, then Muslims do have ‘the truth’ regardless of ...
• if a personal God does exist, a caring and loving God, then Mormons do have ‘the truth’ regardless of ...
• etc, ad infinitum
That is true. There is no objective truth when it comes to God’s existence. It is open to interpretation. When it comes to religion it will always come down to faith and what you feel is right.
Posted by OneEyedJoe
Also, let me add: If you're up to the challenge, please head on over to the thread linked below. I think we're all very interested to see if an active JW can successfully defend the "truth" without resorting to rampant fallacy. Best of luck to you should you try it yourself.
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/275576/1/Active-JWs-can-you-defend-THE-TRUTH
I didn’t come here to defend any JW beliefs but it may be interesting to take the challenge.
Posted by Oubliette
Notice that accepting the Bible is not enough, one must also accept those "beliefs that are unique to Jehovah's Witnesses" no matter how often they change.
Yes, wouldn’t it be odd for people to have different beliefs and yet be part of the same religion? That is the nature of religion.
Posted by fastJehu
If you belief this today, you will be DF.
Yes, beliefs change. I acknowledge that.
Posted by Ucantnome
I was raised to have faith in what we preached and we preached that the tribulation would come before the generation that saw the events of 1914 passed away. This good news was changed. I made some big decisions in my life based on this belief, decisions that have had a far reaching effect on my life. I think a greater effect than Christmas.
So would you have led your life differently if you were not taught that these were the ‘last days’? And there was no 1914 or generation teaching? As a true Christian, you should be living your life the same regardless of when the end is to come. You must take responsibility for your own decisions and not blame an organisation for hoodwinking you into thinking that you must live your life differently because the end of the world is coming.
Posted by The Truth Shall Set Us FREE!
When G-D has a hand in ever changing circumstances in His ever changing creation, then nothing is what it seems to a limited human being who does not know all the factors involved.
Yes, you are correct, there is no free will.
I have experienced miracles more than once (by my own definition and comprehension. I cannot convey something that must be experienced individually....), and since Watchtower Witnesses do not believe in miracles in our days in what I would call this miraculous world of ours, then it is futile to discuss such miraculous events that brings me and others much joy, with people who are not honest with themselves about the circumstances surrounding their own faith.
I’m sure many could claim they have experienced miracles. But do not trust your mind. Do you think that maybe so called Islamic terrorist believe God is on their side and that their results have been miracles? Or Gods Will?
Watchtower Witnesses who are not in the leadership are likened with “drug addicts”, the leadership might be likened with “drug dealers”. The outcome of the Watchtowers hypocritical lies are death for every addict involved. We can surely hate the drug traffickers without hating the addicts…
That is assuming that the drug dealers know they are actually dealing harmful drugs… instead of medicine.
Posted by JamesThomas
The rest of your post was just the “treacherous” play of thoughts, beliefs and emotions. Do you see that?
Yes, I do. :) But that is all we have. Our thoughts, beliefs and emotions are subjective and there is no truth. We just need to be careful before we declare that what we now know is fact.
Posted By Ucantnome
My being convinced of the establishment of God's Kingdom in 1914 is of great importance if i am to be a Witness and survive Armageddon.
Why? It is just a date. How would that impact your survival of Armageddon? Should you live your life any differently?
This fitted with the teaching regarding the generation. An elder sat in my dining room many years ago and said to me that if the end doesn't come by the turn of the century then everything is wrong. I think he believed it was all part of the good news, the truth, that we preached from God.
That was his opinion. Predicting the end of the world is not a core belief of JWs… just guess work.
Now having found it changed it causes me to not be convinced of the truth of the good news presented by Jehovah's Witnesses and so if it so important to preach the good news of the establishment of God's Kingdom in 1914 so as to join and support Christ brothers my not being able to be convinced has a greater effect or at least the same effect on my salvation than if i celebrate or don't celebrate Christmas. I do not believe it is my fault, I was taught it as truth.
So you only became a JW because God’s kingdom was established in 1914 and the end was coming soon? That shouldn’t be the reason. And yes, you are correct… it is not your fault. You were brought up a certain way and all prior events led up to you making the decisions that you did.
Posted by dugout
yo heisanberg its a cult. you know why??? because they are bloodguilty. bottom line.................. they wont go to war, but they killed their own kind. Even babies. No blood.
So they are a cult because they don’t accept blood transfusions? If the bible specifically mentioned “do not put blood into your veins”, would that be easier for you to accept and obey? Or would it still be a cult?
Is there anything in the world that you wouldn’t do to save your child’s life? Think of something detestable to you, something that goes against who you are and what you believe. Now if someone told you to go ahead, do this unthinkable act and your child will live. Would you still do it?
Posted by Ucantnome
So I feel that if we were to apply Paul's words in Romans 10 about having faith in this good news and it doesn't occur what happens to our faith? Maybe this explains how I come to where I am regarding the Witnesses.
JWs have got many things wrong when it comes to picking dates. And I think that they should not be doing this at all. The bible does not give any clues to specific dates. It doesn’t mean that the core beliefs according to the bible are incorrect.
Posted by cofty
The message being preached by JWs is radically different from the "gospel" Jesus commissioned his disciples to preach.
Well, the message of the bible is subjective. Religion is built on interpretations. Anyone can form their own religion and make it seem like the Bible supports it.
Actaully many christians have ethical standards similar to the Watchtower. However the ethics of the Watchtower are superficial.
Yes, individuals do… but not religions. How many religions actually uphold what they bible teaches? Fornication, adultery, homosexuality, idolatry, etc. are all acceptable. Even though the Bible says they are not.
And do they also maintain a neutral stance when it comes to politics? Why is this a virtue?
Didn’t Jesus say that his followers are not part of this world?
Posted by poppers
There IS another option: an impersonal God, and "truth" would be that which must always be present and never changes.
An impersonal God wouldn't "dictate" its thoughts to others to be turned into "holy" books which in turn would end up separating people from one another because of different beliefs about God, but would simply be present in a way that was undeniable if one was attuned to where and how to look for it.
So that would be option 1. There is something out there but it isn’t a personal God.
Posted by Bell15
Are you aware of all the obsolete books and magazines for which the watchtower made millions of dollars selling door to door? P L E A S E ,,, you call this preaching work ... Christians for hundreds of years have been using the bible only to preach the gospel and guess what still the same in December 23, 2014 , Christians don't have to play the new light card every so a couple of years ... Jesus the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.
Why can’t the preaching work adapt to the times? The Bible doesn’t say how the message is to be spread… it just says that it will.
Posted by actfinder
I am not an athiest and do not know if evolution is true or not. I am not sure if God exists, but if he does, he does not seem to care about us.
I do not agree I have to choose one of your options.
It seems you would be close to choosing option 1. A personal god would care about us. There could be something out there that is God-like but is not the God of the bible. Not choosing one of the options I set in the original post doesn’t mean that not knowing if there is God is an option. Either God exists or he doesn't.
Posted by prologos
Heisenberg's uncertainty principle states that we can no only one fact(truth) about a thing, not all, so:
we have the universe and how it works we can not know the 'truth' beyond that.
The uncertainty principle is about quantum mechanics and the properties of a particle. It is not about or thoughts or the philosophies of men... unless we start talking about free will and predestination.
could you expand on the deist option? and accept that the bible and similar book-based religions are guesswork? badly done with limited knowledge?
Well, I’m not sure… If a personal God exists, the Bible or Koran or some other truth must be available to humans. You must assume that a personal God is a loving one and cares for humans (i.e. why did he create them?) so would provide them with guidance in some form.
If God doesn’t exist at all, or there is some impersonal God out there (i.e. mother nature), then the Bible and all other religious material is bogus.
EdenOne,
I enjoyed reading your post and I agree with many of the sentiments expressed. The only thing I would object is that I believe the GB members are not ‘evil’. They are genuine, kind men. I have met them. I think they believe what they teach. They have made mistakes and will continue to do so. They are like everyone else but have a different role. P.S. I have read CoC.
Posted by Mandrake
Note that the below definition is the first that appears when you loop up at www.tfd.com
cult
(kŭlt)
n. 1. a. A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader. -or- A religious organization or movement which deviates from the established religious tradition in the community.
Who decides if a religion is considered to be extremist or false? I consider some religions extremist and many as false. Does that make them a cult? Who decides that members of this religion live in an unconventional manner? Don't the Muslims that live in a Christian land live in a unconventional manner and vice versa? Isn’t the Pope a charismatic leader? And once a upon a time he was authoritarian… but has now lost that power.
Terry,
Thank you for the riddles….
I`m glad I didnt reply to this poster
smiddy
"There is no truth, there are no facts. There is only data we have assimilated."
~ Don Henley, The Garden of Allah
And words to live by, Walt Whitman, engraved on my heart: see my profile! :P
Hey, that's a lesson in -- you gotta work for it, even if it's only one click. xx :snail:
t :sunglasses:
lol, @ smiddy! I couldn't help myself ........ :innocent:
(oh, and that was a 'loose quote', may be off in grammar or summat)
t :pizza:
It is important to realize the difference between the Watchtower Society and rank and file Jehovah’s Witnesses. The name Jehovah’s Witnesses refers to the many people who make up the congregations around the world; the membership. They will often be referred to as Witnesses. To become a Witness is relatively easy; to become an appointed member of the Watchtower Society’s management is far harder and can only be achieved by invitation. Very few are asked to join. The Governing Body manipulate all biblical text and decide how it applies Jehovah’s Witnesses. They are responsible for all policy, rules and doctrines; also the changes that have taken place in their teachings over the years.
The average rank and file Jehovah’s Witness is in a different category. Most of them are ordinary people who have been attracted to the movement by a genuine desire to understand the Bible and serve God as best they can. They are usually decent working class people, whose desire to do the right thing has led to their involvement. Their distant and sometimes hostile attitude towards those outside the movement is a result of what the Society call ‘mental regulating.’ This is achieved through magazines, books, lectures, question and answer discussions and private counseling, coupled with a fear of expulsion if they associate with anyone whom their Society see as a threat to their cause.
Most members would show a great deal more empathy if they were not actively encouraged to view all outsiders as sinners, who are about to be killed by the God they love. After many years in the movement and being trained to view all outsiders with suspicion, believing that they are a threat to their salvation, it is inevitable that some members are unable to feel love for people who are not part of their organization.
