Dateline

by Jacinta 30 Replies latest jw experiences

• 

  Adonai438

  How to deal with sinners in the church and how to deal with crimes are two different things.
  While I know the jws are not the true christian church- they claim to be so they should have to go by the biblical guidlines in any 'punishment' etc.... The Bible never says that we can forgive sin FOR someone else. What I mean is that the WT has no right to declare the molester 'forgiven' completely for the victim. Yes, we should forgive everything done against us like the Bible says but that does not mean absolving the natural consequences of their crimes. Whether or not they are repentant has nothing to do with whether they should be turned over to the police for their crime.
  Even Christians must face the music of the judicial system.
  After all, the Bible says that we are to respect our government because it's authority is given by God for this time.
  We are not talking about someone stealing a pen and confessing. We are talking about a physical crime against another person- mostly children. This is a serious crime that has serious consequences.

  Our government, although not perfect, is not a fascist,evil, unfair entity attempting to control us. (At least not yet (LOL)) The punishment that is given to molesters is fair, and even too lenient at times. It's not like China where they arrest and kill christians and whole churches just for being Christian. The church does not have a command to shelter 'believers' from punishment for a crime. They can counsel and forgive and hold the criminal acountable as much as appropriate but this does not absolve the criminal from paying for his crime- forgiven or not. He may be forgiven by God, the church, even the victim, but he still has an earthly debt to pay. The promise for God to forgive all our sins based on accepting Jesus applies to eternally forgiven and the judgement but it never says people are entitled to earthly get out of jail free cards because of it.

  Sorry I tend to ramble but ultimately, What should the WT do?
  Well, first of all trust in the true God not CT Russels, but aside from that:
  admit their mistakes and change. Change policy. While confidentiality may apply between victim and 'clergy' or offender and 'clergy' they can inform the victim of their rights to involve the police and even assist them in doing so. They need not divulge conversations, just support the victim and let the evidence be weighed by the justice system. They should NOT encourage or threaten the victim to keep quiet.
• 

  ThatSucks

  :: He goes into therapy and begins deal with being raped at 8 by three teenage boys in a "Church School" growing up and continues to be molested though his teens. Begins to understand and piece together what the abuse is doing to his life and where all the fears and anxieties are coming from. He also realizes that he has followed in the steps of his abusers and has also vicitimized others. He goes to the elders AND families in the congregation realizing the need of change and asking for help in doing so. He's not 'reported' by the elders he confides in, but is severely reprooved.

  MANY MANY IF's here. One you seemed to miss...

  *IF* the boy had told on the boys who raped them, and saw JUSTICE administered as those three boys PAID FOR THEIR CRIME. The victimized boy probably would have never... EVER... molested anyone else and put them under the same pain that he went through.

  Now, *IF* he told the authorities within the church and they COVERED IT UP instead of letting him CONFRONT his abusers, AND let the molestation CONTINUE, then you can see just why he became a molester himself. It was the only way he could reconcile the injustice done to him. Does it explain it? Possibly. Does it EXCUSE it? Definately NOT. Could it have been avoided. QUITE PROBABLY!

  Your problem is you are sympathising and analyzing the ABUSER after it is TOO LATE. If you concentrate on the VICTIM's recovery, then you will most likely stop the victim from becoming the ABUSER later on in life.
• 

  mikctr

  Hind sight is sometimes 20/20. But dealing with the facts as they stand in this case, I think it would be handled very appropriately. I don't think it would have been the 'elder's' place to go to the police if not required of them. They are NOT the police and should NOT BE police. Again, let the vicitms and their families deal with it the way they choose. They have that right and justification - and backing. I have not seen that the WT doesn't allow for that. Their policies state clearly that it's up to the victim and the family whether or not to persue legal charges. Is there anything wrong with not reporting? What's the goal here? To stop the abuse or to send someone to jail? Does the princible just apply to molestation or does it go for any and all infractions within the congregation? Take 'em all to court? Which ones 'yes' and which ones 'no'?

  Yes, I do analyze. How else can conclusions be drawn? I don't 'SYMPATHIZE' with a crime. I can and do 'EMPATHIZE'. If we can't do that, and teach others to do the same, nothing can ever change.

  Hey, do we reeeely have to get into MY problems in this forum? lol That would put us WAY off the topic(s)..... and for soooo long....
• 

  ThatSucks

  mikctr,

  Since you are admitting that the elders are NOT the police, then you should also realize that they need to NOT try to handle a CRIMINAL MATTER. It is FINE to tell the parents that they have the right to press charges if they so wish. The problem is if you as an elder also nurture an aura of distrust and disdain for 'worldly authorities', you know as well as I do that they will be far less likely to go to the police who are better equipped to handle these CRIMINAL MATTERS. It doesn't matter if you don't discourage them to go to the police. What that means is you are not encouraging them to go to those better equipped to handle the situation either.

  Do you not realize that a pedophile working with people using your methodology can have a hayday, because all they have to do is be able to look your straight in the eye and say: 'I didn't do it'? And even if they did confess... How many molesters simply confess to you as an elder that they committed the crime because they know that you won't turn them in to the police (in a non-reporting state)? Sure you don't openly condone their behavior, but you indirectly encourage it by providing them with a forum from which to 'feed' their extremely bad 'habit'.

  You ask if anything is wrong with reporting? I would say YES, because nine times out of ten when it is NOT reported, then the ABUSER is free to ABUSE someone else because the VICTIM is silenced. It puts others in DANGER later on. Besides, even if you handled it within the congregation and kicked them out of your social-circle, you are kicking the perp out into the 'world' where they could then victimize even more INNOCENT CHILDREN. Are you such a creed-biggot that you cannot see that?

  You ask what the goal is? The goal is to stop the abuse. Both of the current victim and potential other victims. Nine times out of ten if the perpatrator is not PUNISHED for their actions, they will continue to abuse others. I mean PUNISHED, not slapped on the wrist. I mean someone sitting for long hours behind bars and given plenty of time to think about how WRONG their actions were. I mean someone who has had to sit and think about all of the damage they have done to others. Damage that is usually irreversible to the victim.

  You ask about the principle applying to molestation, and then you have the nerve to compare it to other 'infractions' in the congregation. Molestation is not the same as smoking a cigarette, it is A CRIME AGAINST ANOTHER LIVING BREATHING HUMAN BEING. I cannot believe you are even comparing the two, therefore I will refrain from further comment on this matter as I pitty you greatly for your ignorance.

  You keep on EMPATHIZING and doing nothing else. That's what a pedophile WANTS YOU TO DO. Stay dumb and passive, while they prey on the innocent.

  You mentioned that hind sight is sometimes 20/20. Great! If it's 20/20 and you realize it then FIX THE PROBLEM, DON'T PRETEND IT DOES NOT EXIST. You don't have the wonderful 'Image' in the public-eye that you had before, so it's time to forget about the congregations stupid image and start worrying about the victims.
• 

  Bridgette

  Several problems in your reasoning. The assumedly fictitious perp is, as you say "severely reproved". How? What message is sent to his victims if they are in the same cong? Why are victims not occasionally, BUT ROUTINELY punished, shamed, shunned, and silenced by WTBTS. Sorry, my friend, no way to white wash these deplorable, soul destroying policies by the organization that claims to be: (say it with me) GODS ONLY SPOKESPERSON ON EARTH!!!!!!! Can't have it both ways. A molestor, imo, has forfeited his right to live among society with children. I will chose the children every time. If the molestor has to be locked away forever and ever, then so be it. There is an implied social contract when one is born to the human race, some things inequivocably break that contract.
  Peace,
  B.
• 

  crawdad2

  hey mikcrt,

  you are damn good at changing the issue and side stepping.
  are you on the gov body or something?
  here to kinda sugar coat the horrible pedophile problem you are having????

  you mentioned facts?.......hmmmm.......ya, lets talk about the victims that are going to "testify" in court, when they get the chance...... yes, mik, they are going to "testify" that the elders threatened to disfellowship them if they went to the police,,,,,,,,,,

  sweet talk is cheap mikcrt,.........when they start TESTIFYING IN COURT,
  your sweet talking lawyers won't be of much help.........sweet talk works good here, but i don't think in molestation cases the judge is going to like your sweet talk.

  hey mikcrt,........ wasn't that tape of the legal dept telling bowen to "just drop it" if the molester said he didn't do it, neat!!!!!????..... hmmm, would you call that a FACT?
  just wait, sweet talker, there will be more tapes, and more victims willing to testify that the elders theatened to disfellowship them if they went to the police........ you are going down.
• 

  aramaya25

  First of all I feel for anybody who has been raped or abused. But I was wondering if the majority of you guys retarded or something. What is wrong with you people??? You are so positive are you all on prozac??? I bet you don't even go to the meetings. Why don't you belly ache to the elder's. Or are you afraid of them because you lead false lives.
  I don't mean to be heartless, but everyone has a mouth and hopefully brains,Go to the police. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that one out. It is the parents responsibilty to help their children. I feel bad for Erica from Dateline, but she doesn't have to get on the news to imprison this man. She had her big face in the camera, if I was raped I would be bawling. She has now exposed herself to the entire public. Maybe the congregation was not supporting her because she herself may have been disfellowshipped for past offenses herself. She couldn't even pronounce the name of Jehovah's Witnesses correctly. She should have written the society and told them everything about the elder's who were not listening to her and prosecute the pervert that hurt her so badly.
  At least the presentation of the WTS was coherent. All they got from the Pope when he was so apparently upset was a nod and a snore.
  At least Society is going to crack down, instead of paying off everyone like other religions do or transfer them to a new church.
  I had problems to and the elder's and the watchtower society took care of the problem and kicked a certain loser out of the congregation. The elder's can't tell you every move and detail you need to make. That is why we are not robots. No organization is perfect. Jesus was the only perfect man.
  Yes and Jehovah will take care of the guilty ones. Prosecute these perverts. How many times can a rapist and pedophile be killed or tortured by you loving kind people???? Jehovah also will take care of the ones slandering his name. If you don't believe in him then go be a junkie, fornicator, loser, thief, apostate(major losers).
  Worship false Gods and cry in your own vomit. If you don't want to worship him get off your butt and hit the bricks and quit wasting his time. You are dust on his feet. So instead of crying, do something good for others stop making Satan happy with your pro-Satan attitude.
  Kids need to talk to a parent, teacher, friend. Someone they can trust and make their voice be heard!!! None of us know the whole story, so make sound judgements not idiotic ones. You all have brains. The JW's have done good things and we don't put a full page ad in the papers like all the self-lauding religions who pat themselves on the back for supporting war and genocide all in the name of God.
• 

  ami

  The elders here are behaving as bad, no make it worse than the Catholic church, and had better clean up their act quick. Although I don't see this happening unless more victims come forward, or more start lawsuits against the bad behaivor and judgments. PS>>>>The FBI now have the authority to sit in and monitor, ...(are you ready for that?} Most Elders need to get over themselves, and remember that they have usually never made it in the business world and are now lording it over in the religious world to inflate their egos. (I was raised in the "Truth"), ...I'm speaking from experience

  ami
• 

  Lady Lee

  You know this problem is a lot bigger than just going to the police. That is a huge part of it but there are other pieces.

  First the two witnesses rule is absurd. If you don't recognize that then you are absurd.

  Secondly the gag order placed on victims is absurd.

  ---- scenario----
  girl is sexually abused and goes to the elders. Because she doesn't have 2 witnesses and he denies it there is nothing the elders can do. She and her family are instructed to remain silent so as not to tarnish the perp's reputation or she will be disfellowshipped for starting rumors, gossiping, or going against the elders decision not to do something about the abuser. Elders do not make a note in the abuser's file of the allegations because there weren't 2 witnesses.
  ------end------

  Ok in this scenario the girl can now not go to the police to see if perhaps a professional investigator can get to the truth. The elder's inept attempts at getting to the truth have warned the perp that the victim has talked. He could be very anry and vengeful on her and if the abuser is a relative she might be in serious danger so the elders have made the problem worse

  He figures that he is safe because nothing is done so he is free to wander around and find more victims. Because the elders are more invested in protecting reputations than people they have now put the cong and public in danger.

  Because they are not professionals and do not know how to do these interviews properly they have now contaminated the evidence - the victims memory. She may now be confused - feel even more guilt and shame and be unwilling to talk to the authorities. The elders have also shown her that she will not be listened to and will not be protected, meanwhile his rights come first.

  Because of the silence order the victim cannot talk to others in the congregation to warn them about the abuse and that he could do it again and sadly most likely will because he has seen that as long as he is not caught by 2 people he is free.

  The victim is not encouraged to go for the badly needed counsel she needs as a result of the abuse itself but now for the secondary abuse by the elders who do not help her. In all of the information we have seen and heard how many times have you seen the victim encouraged to go for help. They are encouraged to go to the elders - only the elders can help and when they don't there is no where else to go. Outside counseling while suggested in the magazines is not really encouraged - another double standard.

  So the victim is encouraged to go to Jehovah go to the organization go to the elders but there isn't one person there who is trained to deal with these traumatic situations. No amount of prayer or going in service or to meetings is going to fix this. They need PROFESSIONAL HELP. That means the police, social workers, counselors, and yes prayer too but the rest MUST be there.

  ALL of it. GET IT!!!!!!

  A not-so-silent lamb
  
  Aspire to inspire before you expire
• 

  Keekeedeb

  I really like how you think....good job. saying what needs to be said. This man who sexualy abused me ......WILL PAY. thank you He needs to pay for distroying my life. And my husbands.
  Debbie