Would a JW Elder consider physical evidence?

by ThatSucks 28 Replies latest watchtower scandals

• 

  TheMatrix

  What humiliation would that be dipmuffin?

  Why do you lower yourself to the point of insult me?
  You said "If Sally-Sue's parents walked up to Elder Marvin and said: 'Hey! Brother Phaux raped my Sally! Here, look at her! HER ANUS IS BRUISED!!!' What would the Elder do?"

  I only said that would not be appropiate. What is the elder going to say? "O.k., honey drop your skirt and panties so I can examine your anus" I mean that's just inappropiate. Now if the parents say that the Anus is bruised, then of course the elder should believe them, why would they lie? They should confront the abuser with the physcial evidence and pressure him to confess.

  Are you insane? You're actually suggesting that "Sally" who has been violated by a molester, have her privacy violated once again by a group of men who don't fit into this equation AT ALL?

  What's insane about having a doctor, a specialist, examine the child? What do you think the police would do? How will the abuser be prosecuted if there is no evidence? I'm not insane, I gave that suggestion based on the recommendation given by "ThatSucks".

  you obviously have a confused image of what Bob the plumber/elder is entitled to. You are giving far too much authority to Frank the electrician/elder.

  What does the profession of an elder have to do with all of this? Was this a sarcastic attempt to discredit an elder just because his chosen profession is a plumber or electrician? You don't think an electrician is capable of handling the responsability of being an elder? The pharisees also attacked Jesus' apostles for not having a "worldly" education, but did Jesus care? Nope.
• 

  Room 215

  I wonder what percentage of the almost 78,000 elders in the U.S. are qualified to evaluate evidence, whatever their level of intelligence. That's why these matters are best left to qualified civil authorities.
• 

  ThatSucks

  Matrix:

  : Why do you lower yourself to the point of insult me? :

  Because you 'lower yourself' to fraternize with apostates. It's human nature to oppose one another. With your head in the clouds, you didn't forget that you are human did you?

  : You said "If Sally-Sue's parents walked up to Elder Marvin and said: 'Hey! Brother Phaux raped my Sally! Here, look at her! HER ANUS IS BRUISED!!!' What would the Elder do?"

  I only said that would not be appropiate. What is the elder going to say? "O.k., honey drop your skirt and panties so I can examine your anus" I mean that's just inappropiate. Now if the parents say that the Anus is bruised, then of course the elder should believe them, why would they lie? They should confront the abuser with the physcial evidence and pressure him to confess. :

  An unfortunate miscommunication. I thought you were referring to your idea of taking the girl to the doctor. Perhaps you should be more clear next time on just exactly what you mean.
• 

  detective

  Matrix,
  You've misunderstood my point. You're trying to imply that I said there was something insane about going a doctor, not so. What I hope you understand is that it is insane to further violate a victim by then turning over private medical information to elders. These guys aren't involved in putting a perpetrator away. Their "case" against an abuser needn't be graphic in detail. It certainly shouldn't further invade the privacy of victim by acting like all of their being or life is open to examination by a bunch of irrelevent men.

  Since you're pretending elders have a general sense of how to proceed with a child rape investigation, I'd suggest you ask yourself some basic questions about how these types of investigations are conducted. If you think the victim stands in a room full of cops while they check for labial contusion etc. you're way off! Find out what a rape kit is and who administers it! And who has access to it!

  Elders have no right to that sort of information. Medical records and rape kits are graphic, personal information. Any MD providing it (or any sister/brother) who provides it to a bunch of wackos who want to play town sheriff ought to be fully prosecuted for violation of privacy. That a parent would stoop so low, is highly disturbing and gives me the creeps that any cult-drone action like that would do!

  I point out the elders jobs because I am trying to get the message across to you that these people have their areas of expertise...but social work/medical care/psychiatry/police work aren't necessarily among them. You need to put a little perspective on this. They simply aren't qualified to handle this sort of situation. And don't tell me about how they call legal! If I have a gaping wound, I'm not going pick up the phone and call my lawyer before seeing my doctor!! Is that hard to understand? Child rape is a crime. And it's a medical situation. Forget the society's lawyers. They aren't relevent. Put the victim FIRST. Call the police. Call the doctor. But forget the make-believe courtroom antics.

  But, Matrix, I'll say this much. It really is disgusting to me that- while you choose to acknowledge these untrained men as authorities- I do not, and yet you still want to foist there rulings on the outside world. You'd let my toddler neice live next door to a person you KNOW is a child molester who should be in jail and say nothing. NOTHING. Because she isn't in your group. That is sick. That is wrong.

  And I want you to know, I wouldn't do that to you. I guess it's called basic compassion for another whether they are on my spiritual bowling league or not.
• 

  FRUSR8TD

  matrix,

  Well I wish that it had been that easy for my wife and her 4 sisters. They were all being abused sexually/mentally/physically while they were groing up. A few of them at diffrent points in time over a period of years went to the elders. They only reported the physical abuse to them because they could prove it with the welts and bruses (guess even in there pre-teen and teen years they knew that just there word on the other forms would be worthless). It was ONLY after many years when the girls grandparents went to the elders did they listen. They talked to my father-inlaw (I swear...when he dies I will be attending the graveside with a gold plated shovel) who repented and then went home...very very angry. Never again did any of the girls say anything...cause it was the "good little tight lipped JW" mother that got his wrath that night. The abuse on the girls and there mother continued....and in many ways still does. If there was no statute of limitations or if my newly re-brainwashed JW would cooperate with the law I would slam his ass in prison. If the girls had not been taught that all people that are "worldly" were evil and of satan..then mabie they might have told a teacher or some one at school. The one thing I can tell you...after seeing what happened to there mother the one time the elders spoke with there father....they never spoke of it again untill they were safely out of his house.
• 

  ARoarer

  Some of the comments here I find distasteful and even insulting to small children who are victims. I am the mother of a victim of sexual abuse. I have over the years learned a lot about Pedophiles, thier "MO" (method of operation) and how they get away with what they do. It was an unpleasant education often described to me by experts who talked frankly, and openly to me as a mother who had to deal with the pain of having a child molested and asking myself, how did I miss this. I was an attentive mother, very protective, and loving, how could I have missed such a thing. Excellent therapists helped me to understand the sick way a pedophile thinks and works on children. First of all I learned pedophiles are like serial murderers in that they have a specific "MO" with there victims, how they select them, specific ways they lure them, speak to them, and sexually abuse them. My father-in-law had a specific "method of operation" with his victims, the type of victims and how he abused them. This is not easy to say. Pedophiles who molest small children, even toddlers may never leave any signs that one could physically notice. Often it begins with a child or baby sitting on their lap as they become aroused under their clothes, or sometimes they will fondle the small child under the childs clothes or even diapers, and masturbate themselves. Somethimes they will force oral molestation on a small child. There are many ways a molester begins his methods of operation in the beginning years with a specific child. I've heard of victims describe how their molester used digital penetration over the years until the child had become older and desensitized enough and controlled enough before finally actually raping them. I have heard of victims describe how thier molester always used a pet dog to lick them before he did. These are horrific disgusting things to talk about, but people here better realize just how evil these guys are. When they say "I only touched" or "I coped a feel" it actually means the above incidents. The only signs the poor parents are left with is a small child who, though having no physical signs, often is displaying feeding problems, separation anxiety, academic problems, and this can go on for years until the child reaches puberty or becomes old enough to understand that they cannot be theatened into the conutinued secrecy the pedophile force upon them. Specialists in this field have explained to me that sodomizing a small child can be digital also, orally as they masterbate. Unless there are physical signs, bringing a child to a Dr. to examine their genital area could actually be tramatizing to a child who has already come forward with verbal allegations. To even suggest, even jokingly that a child could be examined by an elder for physical evidence is to suggest abuse on top of the original abuse.
• 

  SYN

  And what about DNA evidence? Oh, I guess the Bible doesn't know what DNA is, so it shouldn't be considered. No offense "The Matrix", these are just plain facts, not meant to hurt anyone's feelings. Well, at least not the feelings of people who base their beliefs on 4000 year old books!

  The reason you'd want to take a child to a professional (or the COPS!) is so that DNA evidence could be procured (this doesn't always have to be an obtrusive, humiliating experience for the child, either). DNA doesn't LIE!

  "Vaccination has never saved a human life. It does not prevent smallpox." The Golden Age, Feb 4 1931 p. 293-4 - The Sacredness of Human Blood (Reasons why vaccination is unscriptural)
• 

  JT

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=4114&site=3

  matrix says;

  "I only said that would not be appropiate. What is the elder going to say? "O.k., honey drop your skirt and panties so I can examine your anus" I mean that's just inappropiate."

  Well matrix these are guys who will be looking into the matter

  could you tell all of us how these guys are qualifed to do anything related to such an issue as child molestation:

  Bob the plumber/elder
  Frank the electrician/elder.
  Wally the window-washer/elder

  Now Matrix raised the issue of “Humilation and Panites” well here you go Matrix with my exp:

  When i was a newly appointed elder at the tender age of 27
  i was introduced to the world of the JUDICAL COMMITTEE.
  It was in fact my first case. i had gotten a call from the PO before the meeting stating that their would be an elders meetings to discuss some judical matters. i sat thru the meeting thinking and wondering
  what type of case would it be and would i be selected to serve on it since i was a new elder or would i be told next you can serve.
  right after the prayer we quickly entered the 2nd school. and there we sat, the po annouced that he had been approached by a single sister who stated she had sexual relationship with a man on her job and this would require the formation of a judical committe.
  i recall so well that one bro almost jumped out of his seat to volunteer stating that since she was in his bookstudy he felt that he would be in a good position to serve.
  the po stated he would be out of town so he could not do it this weekend and it needed to be handle quickly cause it was publicly known on her job
  - the guy got the sister stuff and-went bragging about bagging a JW-
  so another bro was recommended and then the po said let James serve it will be good exp. we got 2 exp elders already.
  so the time was arranged for sat at 2pm at the hall to meet with her but we would meet at 1:30pm to review the flockbook
  well i was up late friday night reviewing the flockbook on how i could be a loving shepard for this dear sister who had been swallowed up by this worldly man - a tool of satan_
  then the time came she walked into the room and i had known her for a number of years and my wife and her were good friends so the embarrassment on her face was so telling
  after a prayer the chairman explained a few ground rules no tape recorders , etc

  then she was asked to tell us what happened
  when she finished --the woman was shaking and eyes just full of water
  then the questioning began
  at first the question were basic one that i thought sounded reasonable, but in just a few min i realized why the bookstudy conductor wanted to serve on her case
  i found out later that he was interested in her yrs ago, but she wasn't
  he married and his wife was one of those big black sisters who was good in field service , but not much to really look at
  while this sister kinda put in mind of a Venessa Williams type to put in plainly she was a nice looking sister i won't lie
  but the questions took a wild left hand turn, he started and the other bro would followup it was like machine gun questions
  Who was on top
  Did he Climax
  was there oral or any anal
  and on an on it went
  and yes the famous question:
  "Were you wearing Panites or Thongs?"
  i could see that she was starting to lose it and she just brokedown into tears- so she was excused to go to the bathroom

  while she was out it was explained to me as a new elder that such questions were NEEDED to see if she was consistent in her story and the details- to see if she was truly repentant or was it a practice

  he explained to me that a "Practice" could be considered if the person had sexually intercourse more than once during the night while in the bed with the person- that it was not needed for it to be separate days, but more than once in the same night and it "could be" considered that the person had made it into a "Pratice"
  the TECHNICAL DETAILS that wt gives it's elders are unreal
  such as the difference between
  1. MOMENTARYLY TOUCHING A SISTER'S BREAST
  2. CARRESSING IT-

  oUR WT elders school spent about 25 min in our class explaining the difference between the two and each has it's own
  punishment
  i was told that the Panty-Thong question would reveal
  "INTENT" "Scheming" "planning" etc on the part of the sister
  you see as it was explained to me if she was wearing Bloomers or reg panties then if a claim was made that we got carried away in the heat of the moment then it would be possible
  but if she was wearing "Thongs" then she went to his house with the intent of Giving him Some

  now this is how i was beening groomed and instructed, being a new elder who had never served on any case i didn't know
  these guys were exp elders with yrs of judical cases under thier belt-
  beside these were all Former bethelites like myself so of course the boys from THE HOUSE knew how the judicial meeting was to be handle

  well she came back into the room and sat down and the questions started again in a few min and at this point she refused to answer anymore questions LIKE THAT and she told us she would not answer THOSE TYPES OF QUESTIONs
  "Girl Friend" picked up her bag and walked out
  in 5 min we decided that she was "UNREPENTANT" AND DFED HER
  I SWEAR TO GOD i only wish i could find her and tell her how sorry i was for allowing her to literally be ganged raped by those guys
  this system of the WT of having men called Elders with no training FREELY be able to ask any Damn quesiton they want to and the persons is obligated to answer or else be viewed as not working with Jehovah's Organization is a Damn Joke
  I often wonder whatever became of that sister- she attended only about 2or 3 meetings after the annoucement and disappared into thin air
  If you are reading this post and you know who you are
  for i'm in the Washington DC area of the country
  I beg you to please accept my apology for supporting such a cruel and evil system
  James
• 

  ThatSucks

  Everyone:

  :: To even suggest, even jokingly that a child could be examined by an elder for physical evidence is to suggest abuse on top of the original abuse.

  Although I did not start this thread as a joke, I would like to apologize to any and all parents and other sensitive individuals if by starting this thread I have offended.
• 

  dungbeetle

  people stilll don't get it, no matter how much work bill bowen and the rest of us do, people STILL DON'T GET IT

  GO TO THE POLICE FIRST GO TO THE POLICE FIRST GO TO THE POLICE FIRST

  if there is a guilty perpetrator, he/she will be in jail, and that will solve that. It will than be public knowlege, what can edlers do then.

  In the case of very young persons, maybe a physician or a therapist first, they usually know the reporting laws. That might be a good alternative for some still struggling with a lifetime association with a cult.

  NO ELDR NO ELDERS NO ELDERS