bonovox,
Well boys and girls, before you jump all over Matrix, I'll take some fire too. I've dug around on this Bowens issue abit, and, if you can conclusively prove me wrong, then fine, I'll listen. But there seems to be a few gaps in the whole saga...
Don't take this the wrong way, bonovox, but WE ALL listen and choose whether and how much of it to believe. Nobody is asking you to buy every letter of every word, and I personally won't cry a river if you don't believe any of "this Bowens issue."
- in his May 5 letter (posted on silentlambs site, which I might add isnt up to date if you believe everything in the most recent letter as posted here..if its such and important issue, whats up with that?) he mentioned he was having surgery, and suggested May 24. I so far have seen no response letter from the JC agreeing or confirming this date. Maybe there is one, can we see it?
Firstly, before this thread, I believe that Bill
already posted that letter. Do you ask because you think it's fabricated? What possible reason would he have for making up something that could so easily be debunked. What possible difference would it make?
Secondly, Bill Bowen is struggling to run a business and feed a family. While he could legally (I think) pay himself a salary as administrator of Silentlambs, I don't think it's taking in nearly enough money right now to do that. I think we can cut him a little slack if he is a little late posting something to the site. Maybe he's working, or helping a real live victim of abuse right now. If he wasted his time answering every (IMHO) little question, he wouldn't get anything done.
- if there wasn't one, which I'm not saying is right, did it make sense for him to round up his witnesses at what he calls considerable expense and effort to come to a meeting that noone was going to be at anyways?
He is running that site
in his spare time! Should he waste time posting every two-sentence letter he gets from the society? What's to stop you and others from saying the letter is a forgery even if he does post it? Do you want the guy to fly you to Kentucky to see it personally? Do you
honestly think he just picked a day in his calendar and got people to fly across the country when there was really no JC scheduled?
The WT sent a letter saying that they didn't go through with the meeting because it was too public. If there was no appointment, don't you think they would have made mention of that tiny little fact?
- why hasn't the letter that was dropped on a chair in his backyard been posted up here? In all fairness I'd like to read what it says.
Does the fact that it hasn't been posted indicate to you that he's lying or hiding something? What difference does it make? Bill is giving us the high/low-lights of this whole affair. If we insist on knowing every single detail of this, then we can get down in the trenches with Bill. If not, then 'in all fairness,' he is under no obligation to share the unimportant minutiea with us.
- I'd also like to see these alleged emails from Witnesses threatening his life. As anything can be forged, you're also going to have to post up some IP info with some tracing proof. I think it also stands to reason that since threatening death is a criminal offense, you should be able to provide us with copies of any correspondence you've had from the authorities on the matter.
To someone who
will not be convinced (which I don't believe you are, but which you seem to be trying to come across as) no proof will be sufficient. How should we verify that the "IP info" is not also forged? How does he gather this "tracing proof"? Should he subpeona AOL to get their DHCP info for a certain IP address at a certain time--and repeat this for every ISP of every email--all to satisfy our curiosity? Is it really worth his time and effort to quiet a few skeptics, who would only question the veracity of THAT information?
Let's assume he does plan on pursuing these matters legally. Are you telling him that he should post evidence of this felony activity on public discussion boards just to satisfy your curiosity? Don't you think there's an overreaching danger of harming any case by tipping off the offenders?
I'd guess that Bill has no intention of pressing charges. There are a number of people who are active on these boards that regularly receive death threats from Witnesses. They post them here from time to time. Most of these emails are written off as frustration from people who are very strongly indoctrinated, lashing out at anybody attacking Mother.
Even if he has no intention of pressing charges, they certainly are part of the aftermath--good and bad--of Dateline. You are, of course, free to be skeptical. But you come across, not as skeptical, but like you've decided he's a liar unless he can provide conclusive evidence to you. Bill has established his reputation for well over a year. If you don't think he is what he seems, fine. Many have been following his saga from the beginning, and have formed opinions of his honesty based on what he's shown.
Look, Im not a witness, havent been one for over 12 years, I just think that if we're REALLY gonna blow this thing wide open, then EVERYTHING should be laid out on the table.
WE? Some things don't need to be out on the table to be believable... some things would only hurt the cause by becoming public knowledge. What do you really hope to accomplish by calling every small detail into question? Do you think that Bill will ever be able to provide so much proof that even the most die-hard Witness will accept it?
A letter (and I might add a wildly meandering one that hardly seems characteristic of most experienced professional counsels) from a laywer is hardly a statement of fact, let's try to remember that.
Do you think Bill is making these letters up? If you don't think lawyers regularly use ten words when one would suffice, then you and I don't read the same legal documents. I believe Bill has provided the address of his lawyer in these documents. Why don't you (especially since you don't seem to want to take Bill's word for
anything) write to his lawyer and verify if these are his words?
And PS: try to resist the urge to childishly flame me for asking hard questions, questions that I would equally ask of any witness if I had the proof Im asking for...And dont tell me 'you dont know what a JC is all about'..Ive been around the block a few times, believe me.
So Bill Bowen, who has had a huge part in opening discussions and initiating change beyond anything many of us thought we'd ever see, should have every syllable that he utters challenged, but we should just "believe" you?
Let's apply your own standards to your statement. Let's see evidence that you've been around the JC block a few times. Oh don't bother posting it in the Personal Experiences Forum... We're going to need the names, addresses, and phone numbers of the elders involved with each of your JC meetings. I hope they have their birth certificates and blood samples handy, because they could just be actors employed by you. We'll also need independent corroboration that they were elders serving in your alleged congregation at the time you allegedly attended. You should be able to get WT Legal to provide all the supporting documentation... but we'll want to have an independent laboratory prove that the papers you supply are on authentic WT stationary. Don't worry, I'm sure the cost won't be too high. Do you get my point?
I think I understand what you're trying to do, and there's nothing wrong with a little healthy skepticism. Hillary_Step is a big proponent of reasonableness, and I applaud him for it. But I think you've swung the pendulum wayyyyyy too far in the other direction, and very few of your questions strike me as valid "tough" questions. There is a fine line between healthy caution, and unwarranted suspicion, complete with veiled accusations of falsehood. Remember that this is an Internet Discussion Forum, not a court of law. Bill Bowen is not obligated to provide incontrovertible proof. He throws out his thoughts and his version of his experiences, and we're all free to accept or reject them based on our trust of him.
Hmmm
PS Why on earth should Bill cancel a trip (be it speaking engagement, business trip, or vacation) for this nonsense? It has NOTHING to do with showing who's the bigger man. It's about not letting these men inconvenience him any more than they already have. If you'd let a group of men change your schedule around for some silly notion of being the bigger man, then... well I guess you're a bigger man than I am.
PPS Simon, would you mind verifying the identity of bonovox, just to make sure it's not one of our favorite posters under a new guise? Just a little healthy skepticism; I'm sure you understand and applaud my caution.
