Attorney's response-Minors-baptism-verbl-cntract

by Cappuccino OC 17 Replies latest jw friends

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Hi Cappuccino: A religious baptism, whether adult or minor is "NOT" a contract, expressed or implied, written or oral ... the elements of a contract are not there.

    Contact an attorney in California who is a specialist in contract law. You can call the California Bar Association for a recommendation, or you can use the online Yellow Pages and search for a contract specialist.

    Or, you can believe me, since I work in contract law, though I am not a licensed attorney.

    The fact that you are a minor when baptized is meaningless. And Mustang is correct about the 'ratification' to the extent if a minor enters into a contract and continues to abide by its terms and conditions ... except that baptism is not a contract in the first place.

    The only crossover between civil and religious contracts is "Marriage" ... and even here, for the religious marriage to be a valid contract in the eyes of the State, it must be recorded with the State where it was transacted.

  • Lee Elder
    Lee Elder

    I think it would be helpful to have an attorney with a good understanding of agency law review
    the writings of the WTS to see if it has created an agency relationship with Jehovah's Witnesses
    based on all of the "advice" it has offered. I've posted this piece before, here it is again:

    The Watchtower Society has occupied an enormously important place in the lives of millions. I believe this is especially true for those raised in the religion. Based on the WTS published statements, the teaching of WTS representatives and their parents, JW children are methodically indoctrinated to believe that the Watchtower is God's organization - his channel for communicating with mankind. It is only reasonable to conclude that this creates an enormous responsibility for the organization to act in the best interest of these children.

    JW children are literally inundated with advice from the Watchtower Society on every imaginable subject and if they are to please their parents and avoid being labeled as worldly and shunned, they must carefully follow the advice of the WTS. The level of coercion is significant and while society will generally condone this type of control when it is in the child's best interest - I believe that is becoming very clear that the actions of the WTS are frequently not in JW children's best interest.

    The WTS has placed itself in the role of divinely authorized spirit
    directed advisor, counselor and agent as a brief survey of their writings indicate. One of the ways that courts have recognized the creation of agency relationships is when one party in the relationship offers advice. Here are a few examples of where the WTS has used this expression:

    *** w71 9/1 526 Fortify Yourself So as to Maintain Integrity ***
    "Contrary to the advice of the organization of Jehovah's witnesses..."

    *** km 2/84 4 Expanding Your Ministry as a Regular Pioneer ***
    "God's Word and spirit, along with the good advice offered by Jehovah's organization..."

    *** g92 5/22 27 The Truth Has Set Me Free ***
    "By applying the therapy along with the good advice from Jehovah's organization..."

    *** g81 10/8 14 The Real Brotherhood of Man Today ***
    "Bryan Wilson, professor at Oxford University, England, made a study of "the recent rapid growth" of the Witnesses in Japan. He wrote: "Witnesses offer a wide range of practical advice . . . "

    By advising millions of persons on a whole range of issues, the WTS has likely created an agency relationship with its members. Once this point is established, the WTS then legally owes a fiduciary responsibility towards those whom it advises (its principals).

    In addition to clergy, other common examples of agency relationships are ones we have with our lawyer, physician, accountant, real estate agent, etc. The courts set a high standard of what is required of those who act as agents. Here is a brief look at the standard and some examples related to the WTS:

    Loyalty

    In a fiduciary relationship, the WTS would be required to demonstrate loyalty towards its members - acting in their best interest. This requires their being entirely open and not keeping any information from members that has any bearing on the relationship. Does the WTS have a problem in this regard? I believe it does since they have worked diligently to prevent members from accessing information that could allow them to objectively evaluate its claims and advice.

    Are WTS appointed elders who have advised Jehovah's Witness parents not to report allegations of child abuse to the authorities acting in the best interest of the parents or the child? Clearly not! Furthermore, these elders have given very bad advice for while some states may not require members of the clergy to report child abuse; all 50 states require parents, family members or friends to report. So in most cases JW elders, at the direction of the WTS, encouraged and at times insisted that the law be disobeyed.

    Skill and Care

    An agent is under a special duty to exercise more than an ordinary degree of skill and care. Consider how this relates to the WTS medical advice on the use of blood or various blood products. Life and death decisions are being made based upon the WTS analysis of the scientific and medical facts concerning the use of blood.

    I believe that careful analysis of the WTS published statements concerning its position on the use blood clearly show that the WTS has either misrepresented the facts, or they have negligently failed to carefully research the available scientific literature and have provided millions of persons with bad medical advice. Following this advice has led thousands to premature death.

    With regard to child abuse, it is becoming apparent that the leaders have failed to exercise even an "ordinary" degree of skill and care in protecting Jehovah's Witness children from pedophiles. The emphasis has rather been on protecting the image of the Watchtower Society and perhaps its assets.

    Full Disclosure

    One who advises or acts as an agent on behalf of another is required by law to make a full disclosure of all of the facts. Again, it can be easily demonstrated that the WTS has not complied with this legal requirement. Repeatedly they disclose only those facts that support the current WTS blood policy and they distort or withhold important information that should be made available to members who are facing life and death choices. Additionally, they go so far as to threaten, intimidate and coerce members so that they will not even seek outside information to supplement the medical advice they are receiving from the WTS.

    Upon careful review, I believe that the WTS actions would violate the generally held moral standards of most communities and hence they are guilty of moral turpitude. It appears to me that any number of torts have been committed, and it is probably just a matter of time before we see claims against the WTS for wrongful death and possibly criminal charges in some jurisdictions. The actions related to child abuse have already begun.

    Once the attorneys begin to see the potential for large awards and the WTS deep pockets, a flood of litigation will ensue. I have just briefly touched on one area of the law that I am somewhat familiar with and I imagine there are many other legal remedies available.

    It is unfortunate that it has come to this but nothing else seems to get the attention of the leaders of the WTS. They are captives of a concept. For generations, Jehovah's Witnesses have encouraged singleness and held out work in the full time service as the highest calling. They have sent their young men to Bethel, Gilead and other WT assignments. In the organization, family and children have never been a priority but rather a distraction from full time service to Jehovah God.

    These youngsters grew up and became the leaders of the organization. Can any of us really be that surprised by what we observe in this broken, dysfunctional system we call the Watchtower Society? Even the leaders are victims, as is so often the case with child abuse, and abuse others in turn.

    Jehovah's Witnesses as an organization must change their priorities and place their children at the top of the list. It's my hope that the current scandal will open the eyes as well as hearts and minds of many JWs. That would be an important first step in addressing the problems in the Watchtower leadership.

  • Dutchie
    Dutchie

    Hello AngryJW:

    First of all I would just like to mention that you really are angry, aren't you? We could be all wrong, the people on this forum make mistakes all the time, but isn't it good to throw out ideas and see what comes back? If you see a mistake isn't there a better way to voice it without seeming so mean? My goodness!

    Anyway, I have noted your comments and since you are so knowledgeable, perhaps you can answer this. What the poster is trying to bring about, I guess, is that his infant baptism be dissolved and accordingly not have to be faced with the shunning aspect, because we know as a witness you cannot just say "goodbye" and walk away unscathed.

    Since the Watchtower is not only a religion but also a corporation, incorporated under the laws of the State of New York, can't it be held responsible for injury caused to its members? I know that religious law and secular law are separate but isn't there some instance where they intertwine?

    If an infant can prove that his baptism was harmful and that it caused him psychological damage or some such thing, doesn't he have the right to sue? Maybe this has just not be proven in a court of law but somehow it seems feasible.

    Now, please, don't call me names. As per your suggestion, I have in front of me piles of law books and guides and I am studying hard. I am even thinking about taking that Kaplan course. I have enough stress, don't give me more.

  • dungbeetle
    dungbeetle

    Angry xjw:

    Once upon a time nobody thought it possible to 'rape' your own wife.

    Then one day, they were wrong.

    Once upon a time nobody thought it was possible to successfully sue the tobacco company.

    Then one day they were wrong.

    Once upon a time nobody thought it was possible to sue your own church and win.

    Then one day they were wrong.

    Like it or not, angryx, you have not always been right.

    And while we're on the subject, continuing to 'beat' your fellow Watchtower survivors only makes Watchtower win. This is an area of children's rights that needs to be explored, and it will be explored. Th eonly thing you can hope to accomplish is making everybody go to another board or a private email group so they can talk while escaping your condescending and patronizing RANTINGS.

    NOTHING is a waste of time. I am proud of these people. They escaped a 'burning building' and they did not run off into teh sunset never to look back (it would be okay if they did). They're turning around and going back in to look for and help others. Bless them.

  • Dutchie
    Dutchie

    Thanks Angry, I appreciate your response.

    I realize, though, that sometimes people just want to vent. It makes them feel good to rant and they really don't want to hear logical explanations. YOU know that!

    Six generations, huh? I'm a third generation myself. My grandmother went from door to door with the old record player and cards.

    I stopped goinjg to meetings a while ago because there were so many things I wanted to do with my life. I have never been disfellowshipped and I have not disassociated myself because I do not want to break ties with my family. However, just because I am no longer one of jehovahs witnesses does not mean that I have abandoned all moral sense and conscience. I don't feel that I have to do all sorts of immoral things in order to validate myself. So actually most things that I didn't do as a witness, I don't do now. The difference is that now my morality is not legislated by a bogus religion.

    Anyway, Angry, there is nothing we can do to change the past.

    We have to look to the future. Now I want you to go and think of some things you are grateful for and maybe we can get rid of some of that anger.

    Best regards.

  • Cappuccino OC
    Cappuccino OC

    I spoke to a "contracts attorney" regarding this issue. The information is POSITIVE. If you where baptized as a minor, contact an attorney in the state that you where baptized in.

    Cappuccino OC

  • mustang
    mustang

    Interesting, OC,

    But we would still need some clue as to the particular strategy and line of reasoning that he is following.

    Particularly, what principles is he using to overcome the several obstacles presented here???

    Mustang

  • bonovox
    bonovox

    All legal issues aside, I think I understand angryXJWs position, while thoroughly disagreeing with the manner in which he originally presented it.

    I could use these legal precepts and take on the WTS, the elders, whoever, but in the final analysis, whether a secular court forces the WTS to annul my baptism at 13 will change nothing about what really is hurting me. My mom will still view me as da'd and therefore df'd, and will still have nothing to do with me. A legal ruling is not going to change the fact that she just does not love me enough to accept me not being JW.

    And I think that is something anyone who is seriously contemplating this type of legal action should consider: what is your ultimate goal? To get a piece of paper with a legal ruling on it? Ask yourself, will your loved ones who previously shunned you now miraculously welcome you back with open arms because the courts ruled that your baptism at such a young age is invalid?

    But if you've got the time and money to fight it for your own peace of mind or so that others are not similarly harmed, I offer you the best of luck...you will need it, for alot of the reasons' noted in others' posts.

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