SYN, You are a JW? Or am I naively falling into a trap, here.
COMFORTER: Allow me to be direct
by HomebutHiding 21 Replies latest jw friends
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JT
OK Old Hipie
I will put you to the test.
Do you admit that by any JW merely being in such a forum as this is actually going against everything that the wt has taught about dealing and assoicating with those they have classifed as apostates? such as the Sept 1/15-81 the Nov, 98 KM insert , etc
you see one of the problems i have always noticed about "loyal" jw they seem to forget so easily and quickly that many of us use to be jw at all levels in the org SO WE KNOW THE RULES
IN FACT some of us who served as Elders used to ENFORCE THE RULES.
So since you said you are honest, please tell us what is the Offical Position of the FDS on members like yourself dealing/associating/dialogging, or whatever you like to call being here.
I recall so well that when i was a kid at the district conventions we were always told NOT TO TALK TO THE BAD APOSTATES OUTSIDE and as you read this post you know as well as i do that NO JW WOULD BE CAUGHT DURING LUNCH TIME CONVERSING WITH those the org has classifed as apostates. i love the way so many jw try and say that by being here NIGHTLY AND CONVERSING BACK AND FORTH DAILY SOMEHOW they are not associating with those classified by the wt as apostates]
I used to be an elder and if I along with the body of elders knew that you or any other jw was here on a regular basis you WOULD BE DEALT WITH .You could kiss the Microphone Handling job on sunday GOODBYE
SO tell us is it wrong for a jw to be here based on what the wt says the BIBLE INSTRUCTS ON DEALING WITH APOSTATES?
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HomebutHiding
I have to know..is there really a new 15 minute minimum time requirement in force? Is this official? Doea anyone have pub reference for this? And, have they again lowered the hour requirements for pios? soory to post the question here, but I can't do another thread so soon after having posted this one.
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SYN
SYN, You are a JW? Or am I naively falling into a trap, here.
***CHOKE!!!!!!!***
WHAT?
Oh God, if it wasn't for the fact that you don't know me, I would have given you a mouthful! Hehe. I suggest you read some of my threads, dude! No offense taken though, I'm pretty thick-skinned! -
HomebutHiding
Sorry, guess i misread your post...thought you were defending a JW position. I am learning!
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TheOldHippie
JT, I was an elder for 24 years, until I resigned last year. I know the written rules as well as the unwritten ones. According to those, I shouldn't be here. But my faith is in Jehovah and Christ, not in a manmade organization, and such an organization is not my redeemer and not my go-between. I will support with all my mind and heart the "theology" parts of what the Society teaches, when it comes to God's Name, the relation between Him and His Son, the trinity, soul, hell etc. But I distance myself from chronological speculations, and from the legalism, the rules etc. that one cannot easily find basis for in the Scriptures, like birthdays, like reporting hours and using that as a basis for evaluating a person's spirituality.
OK?
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dungbeetle
I se OldHippie was nice enough to say he distanced himself from chronology, does he distance himself from any of this? especially being a former elder? Or does he fel there are biblical basis for things like this....
1) The treatment of women
. They are not even allowed to do a Bible READING, or read for the bookstudy, or run microphones or run the soundsystem. In today's world this is atrocious, and what is even more atrocious is the exposure of a girl from the day she is born to the day she is a mature minor to the day she is an adult of this behavior; she is unempowered from the moment she is first carried in her blanket into a kingdom hall. In addition, this blatant and flagrant treatment of women will not attract healthy, well-adjusted women with good self-esteem and a healthy degree of self worth into this religion. This "I don't deserve any better than this" attitude becomes multigenerational, with a lot of help from the fathers and husbands who don't see anything wrong with it either.2) Rape resistance. scream, don't scream, in 1998 it is 'scream' and has been for the most part since 1965, if not before. This invasion into the lives of sexual assault survivors is nothing less than atrocious.
3) Blood/adults. This invasion into the doctor-patient relationship is atrocious. In at least one country it is illegal. The applied expulsion/shunning is not even defensible by Watchtower itself; eating PORK was a death sentence in ancient Israel. Calling all 'ELDER PORK POLICE!!!'
4) Blood/children. A choice between shunning/expulsion and a life saving blood transfusion therapy is no choice at all for a child and in a growing number of countries in the world it is illegal.
5) oral/anal sex. This intrusion into the intimate life of a married couple is inexcusable. This policy is still in effect, although it may well be a don't ask/don't tell threshold RIGHT NOW. In addition to the other factors, this rule especially hurts women because many women both past and present, use this type of sexual activity to control the size of their family while still maintaing marital intimacy, and it is private and low-cost.
6) African-Americans. Oh yes, in the rank and file this segment of the population fares very well. But as you go further up the JW heirarchal ladder (not so visible to the public) you will see the white skins more and more prevalent until you reach the Governing Body itself. One African-American member in 120+ years. As for African-American women and children, see numbers 1-5 above.
7) Theocratic Warfare Strategy. It's okay to lie sometimes, or obfuscate, or whatever word one wants to use. This will cost Watchtower BIG BIG time; it is an atrocious policy that should be done away with. A lie is a lie. A half-lie is still a lie.
8) Deceptive Recruiting Tactics. Another policy that will cost Watchtower BIG BIG BIG. In a worst case, one can study in Japan for six months, maybe longer, and not even know you are studying to be a Witness. On this side of the ocean, one can actually become a Jehovah's Witness and not be aware of the rape resistance, oral/anal sex, extreme shunning, and the UN/wild beast issues untill it is TOO LATE.
9) Rapists at People's Doors. Speaks for itself. Asinine on its face. Totally without redeeming social qualities. Did I say it spoke for itself? Well, I just couldn't resist.
10) Child baptism/shunning/expulsion. Becoming a legal matter in some countries, and definitely becoming one here. Is abusive at best and at worst can result in premature death of gifted young people, who had their whole lives ahead of them. To those of you, gone now, whose voices we can't hear right now, YOU WILL NOT BE FORGOTTEN.
11) Reporting of intra-organizational sexual offenders. A supposed change finally, to a policy in effect since 1967 and illegal in most states and the Federal Government since I believe 1965.
Is that enough to get started with? This is not just about changing policy. This is also about getting justice for the survivors, recognition for those whose lives this religion has cost, and closure for everyone.
Oh and by the way, ((((((((((((( OldHippie )))))))))))))
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ItsJustlittleoldme
will we ever see that day when a JW can JUST BE HONEST
From what I can gather, it happens only once per JW, it's usually the last thing they say before they become an EX-JW...
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TheOldHippie
Dear dungbeetle, I am sorry I have not got much time right now to go into each of your points in detail, it would require more time than I have right now to write, and also of course to find background quotes etc. But, in general, I have no problems in seeing the problems with these points, and in saying that many of them fall into what I referred to as legalism, as the points where the organizational rules and proceedings have poor basis for them in the Bible. With 'no problem' below, I mean that I have no problems in seeing the poor or failing Bible basis.
Point 11 - no problem, should be reported directly.
Point 10 - no problem, have experienced it in my own family.
Point 9 - no problem.
Point 8 - no problem, I do not know anything about Japan, and I know very little about how this is done elsewhere, but of course people should be encouraged to ask as many questions, do as much reading etc. as possible beforehand, because once the doors are shut behind you, the emergency exit might be hard to find.
Point 7 - yes and no; I do not feel I have to tell everybody everything, including the things they did not ask for, but once a definite question is asked, a truthful reply should be given. Differs between whether one is speaking about a personal level of communication, where I have no problems in stating to someone that "I do not wish to reply to or comment on that" or if one is asked by a journalist or policeman for example.
Point 6 - having stuck to left-wing political opinions for all my life prior to becoming a Witness and still being at heart a left-winger, this has been a problem for me, firstly that the organization is so USA-based, and white-uneducated-middle-class, secondly that there have been very few black people - or anything but the above-mentioned for that part - in the leadership. They have been out in the field, but not behind the desks.
Point 5 - no problem; people should find out for themselves, as long as one part is not forcing his / her opinions on the other part.
Points 3 and 4 - have become more and more difficult to handle or understand since blood is divided into parts, of which some are acceptable and some are not. I have made my choice, and others should make theirs, and then all of us in the final end stand responsible to the Creator. If it was an enforced "No", then it was of little value after all. Life is sacred to me, I take care of small birds that have flown into the windows, and have spent hours trying to make them well again. I wept yesterday, as we bid farewell to an old riding-horse after 12 years of faithful service at the riding school, although he is not going to the sausage maker, but to a nice farm to live his final years as a pensioner. Life is sacred, and I know in my heart what I will do if one of my children or closest ones experience this - but I will tell noone. It is my decision.
Point 2 - no problem.
Point 1 - much the same as point 6, but you have some nasty Bible utterings.....
OK, as I said, just some scattered lines and no way a final reply, but just - some thoughts. People can be traced .......
Greetings
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dungbeetle
(((((((((((((((((( oldhippie ))))))))))))
Thanks you, I really appreciate your insight into things. Aside from being a man, you are also from a different culture and your insights are valuble to me from that standpoint as well.
I have heard from others that some issues are more enforced in some place than other, depending on the particular elders involved. I still wonder to what degree this is true.
The interesting thing to me is that Watchtower ALREADY had a Two-witness two-act rule for many years regarding misconuct on the part of JW's, (two-different acts by two different witnessess, if credible, can be basis for expulsion/shunning) and Watchtower just needed to apply it to child abuse. Which they claim they are wiling to do now.
By the same token, Watchtower ALREADY has a DON'T ASK/DON'T TELL policy for many things. Surgical sterilization, abortion, oral/anal sexual relations, and a few others. Elders as a rule don't go around ASKING the flock if they are doing these things, action is only triggered if they get specific information somewhere. They could at least do the same with medical blood therapy.
I just feel like just because Watchtower claims the Bible says ''omen cannot be treachers' (a subject for another post) does not explain this other behavior (microphones BIBLE READINGS readings for the Watchtower study and bookstudy) and they do not even attempt to explain it in the literature. This is a terrible way for girls to grow up.
And a big part of the problem too is the governments and the communities looking the other way under the auspices or pretenses of 'religious freedom', and that is changing at least.
((((((((((oldhippie))))))))))))))