Yesterday I had a car accident so i could not leave for Austria.
I've read your message wherein you wrote that a lot of Jw run
away in the middle of conversation.
I am very sorry to hear this.. I hope you have a speedy recovery, and that no-one was seriously hurt.
Please consider (as you know) that all Jw are really busy.
Job...Family...Congregation...Field service...personal study
...ect..ect.., we really have not a lot of free-time to converse
in newsgroups.
Hmmm, sounds like a case of needing some balance. Everyone has a family, job, and other responsibilities.. However, I was told by all the JW's that I know that they have 'little or no time'.. Sounds like a recurring theme. I do not question that you are busy, I just find it interesting that Jehovah's chosen people have so little time in their lives that they have a hard time finding spare time for something that is of such importance (life/death) to Jehovah. After all, I was told that nothing is more important than to spread the word and to make diciples. How sad that Jehovah's people are kept sooo busy that this becomes a chore for them. Maybe the people 'tending to the flock' need to make a few adjustments, because it really is giving Jehovah's people a bad name. I would expect Jehovah's people to be better balanced. Everyone else in the world can and does make time for their most important duties. (Please don't take offense, like I said before, I REALLY appreciate you answering these questions, and continuing the dialog. I am learning alot from it)
Anyway, now I'm really sick. I've problems with my neck and
for some days i can not move the head. (i 've a lace around the
neck...i don not know the English name) BUT i'm here to answer
your last messagge.
I am VERY sorry to hear this... I will say a prayer for your speedy recovery!
I don't want you could say i escaped the conversation, but please
consider i will need a little bit of time for every message
for the above reason.
I didn't say that, if you will check I wished you a safe trip, and was looking forward to your reply when you returned.. If you didn't reply in a week or so then I would have said that, but I have no reason at the moment to question that you will not reply. You have replied to me every time in a thought provoking manner.
YOU ANSWERED:
I have a couple of questions for this one:
1.) If god knows that all churches are run by imperfect men,
why would god pick just one group of imperfect men above
all others and state "These imperfect men are going to be my
mouthpiece" whereas all the other imperfect men are tools
of Satan?
ME:
You should ask it to God, not to me!
Why God pick one group of persons (Israel) and state
<<this is my people>> ?
and more important:
Why God guided his ancient people through imperfect men like
Moses or the Judges and not through perfect angels?
(Isaiah 55:8-9)
No, I should ask it of you, because no-one has proven to me that your organization represents god any more or any less than any other Christian church. You (or your organization) are the one that has made the claim to be God's sole channel of Communication here on Earth. That is a statement that has not been proven yet.
Oh, and while moses was being guided, did Moses EVER once do something different than what god told him to do? While under God's inspiration, Moses (or anyone else) did NOT make any mistakes. If you think otherwise, then I would have to ask how come you have absolute faith that the bible is God's word, as we know that the bible was written by mere imperfect men, yet we both agree that the bible is the absolute word of god. The reason is because (I assume, correct me if I'm wrong) we both agree that the writers were inspired by god when they wrote everything. They were mere men, and made errors, but while under the direction of God, not a single error was made.
YOU WROTE:
2.) Is it possible that the 'church' Jehovah was talking
about is not a physical entity, but rather the person? So
instead of having a congregation of church goers that all
belong to a single denomination (JW's, Catholics, Protestants
etc) anyone who professes and believes in Christ Jesus and
what he did for us belongs to a world-wide brotherhood of
Christian? If, as the bible says, you should have a personal
relationship with God through Jesus, why do we even need a
man-made imperfect church in the middle of that relationship?
ME:
I do not think so. The bible is clear. In the first century
there was a real Church of God composed by Apostoles, Elders, ect..
They had meetings and they used to go in field service.
Acts 15:6
Acts 15:4
Acts 15:2
Ebrew 10:25
Acts 20:20
All Bible quotes are from the NIV.
Acts 15:1-11
1 Some men came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the brothers: "Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved." 2 This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question. 3 The church sent them on their way, and as they traveled through Phoenicia and Samaria, they told how the Gentiles had been converted. This news made all the brothers very glad. 4 When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and elders, to whom they reported everything God had done through them.
5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses."
6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9 He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are." |
Hebrews 10:25
25 Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another--and all the more as you see the Day approaching.
Acts 20:20
20 You know that I have not hesitated to preach anything that would be helpful to you but have taught you publicly and from house to house.
Yes, I agree there was a 'church' in the first century, however, I believe there is a story in the bible about a Eunic who had a question, the question was answered, he was then baptized that very same day, and then went along allowing the holy spirit to take him away and continue teaching him. Doesn't sound like he needed a church to be baptized and allow the holy spirit to be in him. Also, I find it very interesting the last few scriptures in Acts 15, don't you? Clearly, one's heart is purified by FAITH, not by works, there is an admonishment about being caught up in the law (Yoke), and above all, the apostles believed "It was through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are". -- > No rule books, no monthly 'time keeping' cards, and no mention of being a mandatory member of a church to be saved!
I agree with Hebrews also, in that loved ones should gather together, it should be a habit, and they should encourage one-another. But I also seem to remember somewhere in the bible it stating something to the effect of "Wherever two or three are gathered in my name, I will be there".. That scripture doesn't say anything about needing a church for Jesus/God to be with you, it just simply states that he will be with us when we allow us to be with him... I would assume that you and your family continually talk/study at home etc and encourage one another outside of the Kingdom Hall.. Do you believe that you can do that without the Kingdom hall? Obviously, because I'm sure you do your study (as you mentioned at the beginning of this message as to a reason why you are busy) at home with your family. All the Christian religions that I know about believe that the church is not nessicarily needed for salvation.. It's a tool used to help one get closer to a personal relationship with our Saviour, but it is not needed to be saved.
Acts 20:20 clearly states that yep, you should go house to house. However, just like the JW's believe that the 144,000 is a literal number of people who will be annointed, they reject the other literal part of that scripture that states that the 144,000 are made up of virgin males. They claim that is a 'figurative' saying (I believe). Well, most Christian denominations that I know of believe that the 'going from house to house' is a figurative saying. It was probably true in the day of Christ, as there were no telephones/postal mail/email/Internet etc.. so the only way one could get the message of the good news out was to go from house to house, but the very fact that you and I are exchanging these messages means you and I are both getting our message of the good news out. So, yep, I agree with Acts 20:20, but not in the literal sense that you believe. And, since we are all imperfect humans, who can say that you are more right than I am, or vice versa. Who would I be to say that the 144,000 is comprised of only Male Virgins as the bible states. Either one of us, or both of us could be wrong. And that is my whole point, if the GB admits they are fallable and have made errors in the past, and will continue to make errors in the future (New light) then how can they claim to be the sole channel of communication on Earth for God? Doesn't the GB have any proof of this claim?
YOU WROTE:
3.) Are you stating that the Roman Catholic Church, or any
other church except the JW's are committing voluntary sin?
How so? How do you know that it is just the imperfections
of the men that misinterpreted what the bible states?
ME:
Do you remember what Jesus stated in Matthew 7: 16-20 ?
and Matthew 7: 21-24 ?
and Matthew 15:3 ?
and Matthew 15:9 ?
and Matthew 15:19-20a ?
The volountary sins I was talking about are the same you
can find in the above scriptures. Nothing more, nothing less.
Matthew 7:1-24
1 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3 "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye. 6 "Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. 7 "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened. 9 "Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! 12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets. 13 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. 15 "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' 24 "Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock.
Matthew 15:1-20
1 Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, 2 "Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don't wash their hands before they eat!" 3 Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4 For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' [1] and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.' [2] 5 But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,' 6 he is not to 'honor his father [3] ' with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7 You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you: 8 " 'These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. 9 They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.' [4] " 10 Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen and understand. 11 What goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean,' but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him 'unclean.' " 12 Then the disciples came to him and asked, "Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this?" 13 He replied, "Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots. 14 Leave them; they are blind guides. [5] If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit." 15 Peter said, "Explain the parable to us." 16 "Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them. 17 "Don't you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? 18 But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man 'unclean.' 19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20 These are what make a man 'unclean'; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him 'unclean.' "
Are you claiming that the 'love' you have amongst yourselves is somehow better or deeper than the love people have in other Christian denominations? Although I cannot comment on the love within the JW organization (never having been one myself), I can personally attest to the fact that I have seen love from many people of all Christian denominations, enough that I consider some people my brothers and sisters, although we are not family related. More over, the love I have felt from other Christian denominations is not based on my love and loyalty to an organization. I also think that would be very arrogant of anyone who thought they were part of an elite 6 million people on Earth that are the only people that can and do love each other. Anyone believing in the good news of the bible will have true honest Christian love for one another. And I've found many of these people in my life, of all different Christian denominations.
YOU WROTE:
No, you never stated that you will follow the errors. What
you did state was that you would continue to be loyal.
Loyalty implies that you will follow, and following someone
you believe to have errored is forgoeing your conscience
and is the same as committing the error itself?
ME:
I don't think so!
I repeat my previous question:
could you please explain me 1 SAMUEL 26:11 ?
Was David loyal to the Visible Organization or was he loyal
to Jehovah?
1 Sam 26:11 But the Lord forbid that I should lay a hand on the Lord 's anointed. Now get the spear and water jug that are near his head, and let's go."
Yup, the Lord says you should not harm his people... David was loyal to Jehovah, the LORD stated that you should not lay a hand on his people, and he didn't. Again, however, you have NOT proven that the organization is the lords exclusive chosen people.
YOU WROTE:
I'll give you an example: Let's say that new light comes out
from the GB (doctrine x).. You disagree with doctrine x,
and even contact the GB about it.. They say, that is the
correct interpretation, sorry you do not agree with us, but
doctrine x stands.
Now, to be 'pleasing to god' you are taught to go in field
service.. So, you go out in field service, and you meet
someone who asks about doctrine x. You now have a choice,
you can be loyal to the organization, and teach them doctrine
x all the while believing it to be in error, or you can tell
them that you do not believe in doctrine x in which case you
would become an apostate, right? So, out of loyalty to the
organization, you now teach or at least support a doctrine
that you do not believe in. To me, that is going against
your conscience, and when the day of judgement comes, and
you have to personally account to Jehovah, what will you
tell him?
ME:
Sorry, but i've never teached things that i do not believe
in! So all the above statements are nonsense.
I don't agree some points of WTB but i never teached them
in Field service or in Congregation. I always discussed them
directly with GB and Elders of my congregation. And MY decision
was to wait until God will clarify that points.
**********************************************************
remember, it is the attitude that makes the apostates
**********************************************************
Ok, answer me this one: You go out in Field Service, and someone asks you a question about doctrine X, which you do not believe is correct, but the organization states that the answer to doctrine X is YYY (you think it is ZZZ).. Do you teach the person YYY or ZZZ? If you teach him YYY you are not being loyal to your conscience, as you don't believe YYY; If you teach the person ZZZ you are not being loyal to the organization that states 'this is what it is'. If you decide not to teach, the organization will state that you are spiritually weak, yet you obviously have a very deep love for Jehovah, and just have a conscientious objection to one of the doctrines (let's say it is a small doctrine, nothing even very big) you are classified as spiritually weak. So, what do you do?
I WROTE:
I can understand your point of view.
Do you remember king Saul?
Note that i do not want to compare GB with Saul, it's just
an EXAMPLE.
He represented the human organization of God, in the past.
You know that he made a lot of mistakes.
He also tried to kill David. So could you please explain me
1 SAMUEL 26:11 ?
Was David loyal to the Visible Organization or was he loyal
to Jehovah?
David was loyal to Jehovah, as I don't even see a visible organization there; and it was clearly Jehovah's wish not to have anyone lay a hand on his annointed. But, then the question still remains for which you have shown no proof.. How do you know that the organization's annointed are the only annointed that are 'gods annointed'?
YOU WROTE:
Huh? How have you proven to me that the GB is indeed to
lord's annointed? That is your claim, not mine..
How come you apply that to the GB, but not to any other
church (Cathlolic, Protestant, etc)? What is the difference;
all of these you mentioned are mere mortal imperfect men,
doing the best that they can to try to 'reason' from the
scriptures, right? After all, does the GB have any direct
revelation from Jehovah, or just a self-made claim
(via imperfect men) that they indeed are God's mouthpiece?
ME:
....wait, wait, wait a minute!!
I was not talking about GB.
I was talking about Saul that represented the ancient
organization of God. And i'm still waiting for the answer:
Was David loyal to the visible Organization or was he
loyal to Jehovah ?
David was loyal to Jehovah.
YOU WROTE:
....Explain to me how you are not:
1.) Shunning ex-members
2.) teaching stuff that you may not believe in (going
against your conscience)
3.) stayed seperate from the 'world'
All of the above is based on a man made claim that they are
god's mouthpiece.
ME:
1- Why did you said i'm not shunning ex-members ?
2- Why did you said i'm teaching stuff i do not believe in ?
3- Why did you said i'm not seperate from the 'world'?
(I hope to have understood in the correct way! If not,
please explain me again with simple words.)
I'm not sure how you took that, I didn't mean any offense if that was what you took it as.. As a JW, I am under the impression that it is your 'duty' to shun ex-members, stay seperate from the world, and to teach what the society believes to be true on any given day. That was my statement, that you as a JW in good standing would be following these directives. (Correct me if I am wrong). To which, I replied:
YOU WROTE:
...
What if they are wrong, and they are NOT the lord's
annointed ones? What do you think Jehovah will do when that
judgement day comes, and you tell him that you followed
these men, and he asks you why you followed imperfect men,
went against your personal conscience, shunned your loved
ones, and stayed seperate from the world, and rejecting
people I sent to you because you thought they were of the
world, when in-fact they were from me?
ME:
I will answer...
<<Because ,after Jesus, you did not provide any perfect man
to follow.
Because i've passed 18 years of my life in another religion
and i used other years to study other religions again...but
i found the Fruits of the Spirits only through JW's.
I know they are imperfect (as per myself) but i made this
choice in armony with my studies and my conscience.
So, now, if you want to reject me, i'm ready to die with the
absolutely conviction that i made the right thing.>>
But obviously, I'm sure this conversation will never happen.
Uhhh, you would actually say to Jehovah, "So now if you want to reject me, I'm ready to die with the absolute conviction that I made the right thing".. Whoa! I don't know about you, but I plan on being alot more humble towards my creator.
Anyway, for you, you believe that the JW's have the "spirit as manifested by their fruits".. I can attest to the fact that many Christians who are not JW's believe that they too have found evidence of genuine Christian fruits in others.
Oh, and are you sure that Jehovah's/Jesus' answer to you about; "Because ,after Jesus, you did not provide any perfect man to follow." isn't going to be something along the lines of where did you get the idea that you were to follow man? Then he'll probably point to a scripture about the Pharisee's...
And, the bottom line question remains: On what authority does the WT claim that you must follow them in order to have a hope for salvation? I have yet to see any proof.
YOU WROTE:
...
Please show me divine proof that the claim they make of
being god's mouthpieice (the lord's annointed) is accurate.
Otherwise, it is just their word, and they could be wrong,
as we all know they are imperfect men.
ME:
Maybe you do not remember that your above statements are
exactly the same Jesus was talking about in Matthew 12:38-39.
see also:
Luke 23:8
2 Cor 5:7
Matthew 12:38-39 38 Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, "Teacher, we want to see a miraculous sign from you."
39 He answered, "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.
Luke 23:8 8 When Herod saw Jesus, he was greatly pleased, because for a long time he had been wanting to see him. From what he had heard about him, he hoped to see him perform some miracle.
Ok, so you are stating that the WTBTS of New York is a prophet, and in that case is subject to the tests in the bible of Prophets? Basically, to be a prophet from god, they have to prophesy in god's name, and what was said in god's name has to come true. (I.E. while speaking for God, absolute unwaivering truth has to be told -- no new light, no nothing -- plain and simple, what is said is in fact exactly what happens). If a prophet claims to prophesy in God's name, and that does NOT come true, then the prophet is a false prophet, God did not send them, and you should not be afraid of that one (I think there is even something in there about that prophet shall die).
So, we now have the test to see if indeed the WT is as they claim to be.. I'll tell ya what, you look up any prophesies that the WT made (in print) in God's name that came true, and I'll see if I can find a prophesy that they stated in God's name that did not come true.
2 Cor 5:7 We live by faith, not by sight.
Then why do you need a visible organization?
John 13:35 35 By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."
John 13:35.... I found this kind of love inside the JW
organization. If you found it in some other organization, ok!
Stay there. But when that day will came, remember that
somebody knocked at your door.
I am very happy that you have found the love that you were looking for within the organization. My question is why do you believe that this love is not found outside the organization as well? I am sure that there are some people on this board (ex-jw's) who have found love outside of the organization, and hopefully some of them will attest to it here.. I can attest to the fact that I have plenty of love, and have yet to see any love from a JW that is 'better' than the love bonds that I already have.
Oh, and the part where you say to remember that someone knocked on my door is only valid if indeed your organization is a prophet sent from God. That should be easily proven/disproven, as we are both going to look up their 'record' of prophesies that they spoke claiming they were from god, and see if they came true or not (As per biblical tests for prophets). If they are proven correct, and I do not heed their warning, then yes, I will have to answer to Jehovah on why I rejected his people's message. On the other hand, if they did prophecy even once in the name of God and that prophecy did not come true, then your warning will apply to you, and not me. (Get out of her, she is a false prophet, do not be afraid of her, and that prophet will certainly die)
please do not consider my late answers as a try to escape.
I've also the other thread with a long message to t
No, I do not consider the delay in any way shape or form a way to avoid the questions. You stated that you would be away for a week, so I wasn't expecting an answer until you returned.. Had you not answered after you returned, then I would have chalked up your non-answer as avoiding the questions, but you have given me no reason as yet to question your intentions to reply to my questions. Of this I can say thank you, I appreciate it very much..
I look forward to your replies, and until then, I shall say a prayer that you have a speedy recovery, and wish you peace.
Edited by - ItsJustlittleoldme on 21 June 2002 10:48:15
