Hi Frank,
YOU WROTE:
If Armageddon happened right now (This very instant), and I
am certainly not one of Jehovah's Witnesses, in fact I have
signifigant questions as to the claim that the organization
is god's channel, do you REALISTICALLY believe that I will be
saved from Jehovah's wrath? -- I've been to MANY KH meetings
where the speaker is constantly re-enforcing that very premise,
that "JW's are the only one's with a realistic hope of making
it through the big A"..
ME:
I DON'T KNOW. I'M NO-ONE TO SAY THAT.
Please do not try to put in my mouth words that i never
said and that i will never say.
I never accused you of saying that, I am stating that I heard (in person, with my own ears) on two seperate occasions in two seperate Kingdom halls from two different elders that very statement, that JW's are the only one's that have a realistic chance of making it through the big A.. I was merely asking you:
A.) To explain that to me
or
B.) Tell me you do not share their views, in which case, explain how the WT can claim, and in fact, prides itself on the fact that everyone is in unity within the organization if you do not share the elders views.
YOU WROTE:
So, if you answer differs from what
I've heard many times from the podium, I'd love to hear your
explanation.
ME:
I'm trying to explain it since the beginning : WE ARE NOT
PERFECT AND WE MAKE MISTAKE (EVEN BIG SOMETIMES..AS PER SAUL)
When we state that someone will not pass the big A, we always
consider him as component of a organization and not as single
individual.
Then that goes DIRECTLY against scripture, as stated in (Revised Standard Edition, Romans 14)
12 So each of us shall give account of himself to God.
The scripture says that you will be personally accountable to god, I don't see anything about an organization mentioned there.. And there are other scriptures in the bible that state the same thing.. If you wish, I will look them up for you. Can you show me just one scripture that states that you will be judged as a group?
YOU WROTE:
If they are not god's channel, and you
view everyone that has sworn allegience to the organization as
the only one's that have a 'realistic' chance of being saved,
how do you think Jehovah will judge you?
I never said that! I do not know the answer to your question!
Would you explain it to me ?
Maybe you know how Yhwh will judge me ?
I never stated that you did say that, but I did assume that you thought the same way as the two elders here in the USA that expressed that very idea. Again, I did not hear it from just one elder, but from two different elders, at two different times, in two different Kingdom halls. I made the assumption because I've been told by every JW I ever met that one of the 'signs' that you are the true religion is that all of you are in unity with one another, and get the same spiritual food at the same time.. I'm confused, as it seems you do not share the views of the elders on this one.. And, no, I have no idea how Jehovah will judge you, but I was using the bible scriptures that stated that everyone is judged individually, and just reminding you of them, sorta like you have reminded me over the past few messages we have exchanged that "we will see when the big A comes".. What did you mean by those comments?
YOU WROTE:
I made an observation based on about 10 experiences I've had
over the years, where all of the JW's claim to be in unity
with one another (In fact, they boast of that fact!), and
all of them use the exact same reasons over and over again
for different things. Your organization makes the claim that
anyone not of the organization is part of satan's world, and
has no realistic hope of being 'hidden' in the day of Jehovah's
anger. Please compare my observation to your view of the world,
and tell me who appears to be passing judgement on who?
ME:
I believe you, but i kindly ask you to indicate me the magazines
to check the whole articles.
No Magizines, heard it directly from elders at Kingdom hall meetings..
YOU WROTE:
Show me one example where Moses caused
someone to stumble and feel that Moses was not acting under
God's authority.
ME:
Are you stating that Moses did not make any mistake during
the time he guided Israel through the desert ?
Nope, but you didn't answer my question.. Can you show me one example in the bible where Moses mistake caused someone to stumble, and turn away from Moses, and thus god? In fact, can you show me just one example in the bible of where someone specifically selected by god to do his will (Jonah, Moses, Noah, etc) made a mistake that DIRECTLY resulted in poeple stumbling, and turning away from God's chosen person, and Jehovah himself?
I WROTE:
This story [Eunuc], on the contrary, support the idea that
we need a Organization. If not, why the Angel sent Philip to
explain the Bible? The Angel directly could explain the Bible
to the Eunuc. Moreover, why God did not let the Eunuc able to
understand the Bible by himself?
Why the first Christians recognized to need an Organization,
as you confirmed ?
YOU WROTE:
Again, I do not believe that you need an organization or a church.
ME:
I understood what you believe and what you do not believe,
but we should try to understand what GOD believe !.
So please answer my above questions!
I'm sorry, what question(s) specifically do you want me to answer?
YOU WROTE:
The church/organization is used as a tool to help you foster a
personal relationship with god, it is not nessecary for salvation.
ME:
This your opinion not supported by the bible accounts.
Can you show me specifically in the bible where it states that an organization is needed for salvation? I can show you many scriptures where it talks about being saved, and not once have I found a scripture that states you need to be part of some organization here on earth to be saved.. Please show me just one scripture.
YOU WROTE:
Are you in some way stating that Jehovah is going to look at
our 'record' and say that he never spent time in Church/Kingdom Hall,
and because of that he is not worthy of my love, and will not be
hidden in my day of anger?
ME:
I'm not talking about KH. When i talk about Church i mean a
Organization of God not the building.
Ok, we are in agreement!!!! You do NOT need a physical earth-bound anything to be saved! I assume that is what you meant! Again, I believe that we are part of a world-wide congregation of Christians that profess to believe in Jesus Christ, understand his sacrifice, allow him to lead us, and have faith in him as our saviour. ! We agree!
YOU WROTE:
I believe the JW's (as do I) believe
that Jehovah looks at an individuals heart condition, and that
alone is how Jehovah judges.
ME:
I belive that Yhwh will not only looks at the indivuduals
heart condition but will examine also our WORKS coming from heart.
Mat. 7:21
I agree with you, I stated in an earlier message that works without faith is useless, however, if you have faith, your heart is naturally motivated to works... If you have faith, the 'work' will show thru without any problem...
To be judged in a positive way we must obey to his written word..
as Hebrews 10:25! How could you obey to this verse if you do
not believe in a organized Church ?
Hebrews 10:25 (RSV) not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.
Who organize these meetings ? What are you talking about
in these meetings ? How can you talk of meetings if you
believe that the religion is a individual question ?
Would you be so kind as to show me where that scripture implies that it must be a formal meeting, required to be organized, have to talk about specific stuff? I talk about spiritual stuff with my friends all the time, I meet constantly with people (as does happen in every day life) and we have very uplifting talks, and, the bible states that every time two or more gather in my name, I'll be there.. So, show me in that scripture where it states specifically that I must meet in an organized fashion, with a specific agenda and lecture content to satisfy god? That sounds more like a ritual/ceremony than a reason to fulfill the above scripture, if you ask me.. I encourage alot of people, as do alot of people encourage me, on a daily basis...
YOU WROTE:
So, by stating that you need an
organization, you are stating that people in parts of this
world who do not worship in an organized fashion have no
chance of being hidden on Jehovah's day of anger?
Is that what you are stating?
ME:
I never stated that!
No, you never said that.. But is that what you think? Yes/No?
YOU WROTE:
Are you similairily stating that people who
do not go to church/Kingdom halls on a regular basis will not
be hidden in the day of Jehovah's anger?
ME:
I'm not the Judge! I never stated that!
No, you never said that.. But is that what you think? Yes/No?
I'll ask a more specific question for you: Are you stating that people that do not meet regularily and talk about Christ and Jehovah will not be saved? So, for people around the world who have never heard of Christ of Jehovah, he will kill them in the big A simply because he never heard of them?
YOU WROTE:
Are you stating that Jehovah's undeserved kindness and love
for us hinges on us belonging to a church/organization?
ME:
I'm stating that that Jehovah's undeserved kindness and love
for us hinges to <<do his will>>! And to do His will, we
must obey to his written word, so we must attend the meetings,
we must preach His word, we must teach to others...to do all
these things is necessary a Organized Church and God knows that!
Show me from the scriptures where we need an organized church to do all the above, and where it specifially states that "God knows that".
YOU WROTE:
Could it be, like I said
before, that the 'orgainization' of which you speak is the
'organization' of people from all nations in all parts of the
world who believe in Jesus, and what he did for us?
ME:
Are you serious ? Do you really think that !
Do you really think these organizations are the Church of God?
Where is the fruit of the Spirit ?
They make wars one against one! Only that should make us
understand that is impossible!
But what about the command to preach the Kingdom of God?
What kind of secular organization is doing that?
What kind of Organization belive that God and only God will
solve our problems?
I think you misunderstood me, I was talking about a spirtual organizion of Christ, not any earthly organization.. I'm not sure what organizations you are talking about..
As for organizations that preach the word of the gospel, there are MANY besides your organization that does that.. In fact, most of the world today that has any form of Christianity in it was done well over 200 years ago by the Catholics/Prodistants and other Christian sects well before Russell ever founded the Watchtower in 1874.. You may not agree with their 'version' of Christianity, but there is no denying the fact that there are many groups preaching the gospel door-to-door besides you, and they were doing so well before your organizion came into existence.
We must not close our eyes to the reality. God had a own
people in the past, and He has a people now.
I agree with you 100%.. I never argued with that point.. I happen to think the people he has now are the world-wide congregation of people who believe in Christ as their saviour, and put their faith in him and him alone.. You have not shown me anything from the bible that states that I must be part of an Earth-bound religious organization, and you certainly have not demonstated any proof to me that even if one existed, your organization is that chosen organization. We both agree that there is a church or an organization, we just disagree on where it is.. You believe that God would put his church/organization here on earth, and require that imperfect men be put between Jehovah/Christ and youself, while I believe that the congregation is actually a wolrd-wide fellowship of all Christians who understand the basics of Christianity and accept Jesus Christ as their saviour and their head!
YOU WROTE:
What I've observed (i'm not passing judgement on them, just
making an observation) from the mjority of JW's that I know,
they seem to be motivated more by 'fear of god' and peer
pressure than by faith. Those are NOT motivating factors that
cultivate faith, those are motivatiing factors that cultivate
works.
ME:
I'm sorry but this is not my reality! The mjority of JW's
that I know seem to be motivated by love.
I'm happy to hear that.. The majority of JW's I know practice a form of conditional love; If you love the organization I will love you back, if you disagree with the organization my love will be metered appropriatly.. I just don't see any example of this 'limited' love in the bible from Jesus or the Apostles.. Jesus loved everyone unconditionally, and expressed that love many times.. He ate with people that were 'bad association', he saved a prostitue from being stoned, etc.. And, of course, he gave the ultimate show of unconditional love when he gave his life for everyone past, present and future who live(d) so that they may be saved... Would you give your life for an apostate? Jesus did, for there were many people in his time (obviously, he was executed by some of them) that turned their back on Jehovah.. But he asked Jehovah to forgive them, for they knew not what they were doing.. Do you forgive apostates in the same manner? For that matter, will you show apostates any form of love at all?
As for the 'fear' part, if someone is always worried about pleasing others, there is a fear or a concern about doing something that will offend someone else, and thus will cause the other to express his dissatisfaction, in the case of the JW, by withholding love.. That is what I meant by fear! Fear of Jehovah, however, the fear really seems to be, Fear of the organization, and not breaking any of it's rules or doctrines.. Seems very much from the outside like the pharisee's of the bible. Can you explain to me how you are not a Pharisee, and not following the dictates of imperfect men?
YOU WROTE:
I've been to meetings where they
'encourage' all the brothers and sisters to go out in the
field ministry, and in fact, they even have defined hours
for various pioneer (aux, special, regular) levels. They then
follow that up with 'Wouldn't it be wonderful if you were out
in the door-to-door' ministry when the big A starts, or 'maybe
you can encourage some who are not active in the ministry work
any longer to re-join our efforts'.
ME:
What's wrong in that ??
It sounds to me like peer pressure is being applied. I dont' recall one instance of an apostle or Jesus himself using PEER PRESSURE to make someone do something.. If their heart condition was correct, why would they need to be reminded of doing Jehovah's will in the first place? Sounds more like they are pushing 'works' and hoping one gains faith that way.. That seems backwards, as we both agree, you have to have faith, and then the works follow naturally.
YOU WROTE:
Oh, and would you explain James 2:25 to me? How can someone
be claimed Righteous if they practice sexual imorrality?
ME:
This is not the subject of the thread.
The subject is: << Does God require a organized Church? >>
Anyway you can find the answer easily through our pubblications.
Actually, the original subject of this thread was on the 607 date, and you made it the subject of an organization or not.. I have answered all your questions, would you please answer mine?
YOU WROTE:
Show me in the bible where you MUST be a member of a church
to be saved.
If you mean the actual people of God....:
Act 15:14
Tit 2:14
Hebr. 8:10
Rev 18:4
Those scriptures prove that god certainly made a covenant with the people of Israel.. Are you stating that those people were his "Church"?
The first thing is to obey to the commands of Jesus.
And the first Christians understood that to do that, it was
necessary a Church. Take also note that they was guided by
the Holy Spirit. So if they considered necessary to organize
themself in a Church, it is clear the The Holy Spirit guided
that choice. See Act 15:28
Please, I once again ask, show me in the bible where it specifically states that you must be a part of an earthly church to be saved.. By stating such, you are now stating that the people in 2/3 of the world that do not attend any church will not be saved, because they NEED to be part of a church to be saved.. Can you explain to me this contradiction? Is Jehovah, the loving god, going to kill 2/3 of the world's population simply because they never went to church? Again, show me in the bible where it states specifically that you must be part of a church here on earth to be saved.. And before you say, you never said that about the killing of the 2/3 of the people, please explain to me how you can state you must be part of a church to be saved, and yet state that Jehovah will spare the lives of people not going to church.. The two are mutually exclusive; you either MUST be part of a church to be saved, or you do not have to be part of a church.. So, are the 4 billion people in this world that do not belong to a church going to be killed by Jehovah?
YOU WROTE:
Show me in those two above scriptues where it says that the
following REQUIREMENT was to form a church? -- It clearly
states what the REQUIREMENTS are, and I see no mention of a
church being REQUIRED there!!!!
ME:
In Act 15 everybody can check that the Holy Spirit guided
the first Christians in their choices.
So if they considered necessary to organize
themself in a Church, it is clear the The Holy Spirit guided
that choice.
How can you say that? Every human can make mistakes, as you have pointed out many times.. Are you saying that the apostles were infallable? You've already stated that the apostles have made mistakes.. So, how can you state with absolute AUTHORITY that the holy spirit guided them to form a church? And more importantly, if indeed a church was needed for salvation, don't you think God would have included that little detail in his manuscript, the bible, after all, he did inspire everything that was written in the book.. How can a loving god who wants all his children to come to him leave out such an important detail as that? And, finally, as your own organization has stated on many occasions, even though the Governing Body has the holy spirit, at times they make mistakes..
YOU WROTE:
Oh, and here is an interesting question, Are JW's allowed to
eat meat from that of strangled animals?
ME:
This is not the subject of the thread.
The subject is: << Does God require a organized Church? >>
Anyway you can find the answer easily through our pubblications.
Once again, the original subject of this thread was about the 607 date, and YOU made the subject about if there is an orgainized church or not.. I have answered all your questions, and you have the TRUTH, so I would appreciate it if you would answer my questions, since you obviously know the answer to this one..
YOU WROTE:
If you are a missionary in a third world country, going
door-to-door may be your only alternative. But here (In the
USA anyway) there are many other avenues to get the word out.
And I believe that is what the bible is saying, get the word
out. When the bible was written there was no other way to get
the word out, now there are. Do you agree with me that going
door-to-door is to get the word out about the good news?
ME:
I agree with you that there is not only door-to-door.
We use phone,Internet,letters,e-mails,NewsGroups, ect..ect..
But YOU have NO ELEMENTS to say that door-to-door is a
figurative way to preach !
I have as many elements to say that is a figurative interpretation as you have to say that the 144,000 are literal, but the same very scripture also contains a figurative male virgin jew in it... I am respecting your views, and you should respect my views. I've asked you at least a dozen times to show me from scripture where it states you need to be a member of a church or an organization to be saved, and as yet, you have not shown me one, because I don't believe one exists. But I understand that is your interpretation of the bible, give me the right to interpret the bible otherwise, and show me where I am wrong. If you can interpret things in the bible that the bible doesn't specifically state, then you need to give me the same options, either that or you are a hypocrit! To make me change my mind, and understand things the way your organization has interpreted them, show me the proof that your organization is god's organization!
The Church of God has to preach ALSO door-to-door as stated by
Act 20:20.Obviously we PREFER to go door-to-door beacause we prefer
to have a personal contact with the people.
I never said that there was anything wrong with going door-to-door, I just don't believe that is the only method in present day, and to state that not going door-to-door is not fulfilling the spreading the word of the good news is any less valid than going door-to-door to spread the good news.. Sorry, if you have a right to put things into the bible (as you state, a church is required, yet you have not shown me one scripture that spells that out literally), then I should have the same right and you should grant me the same respect for me to interpret the scripture about going door-to-door as to be 'adjusted' for the current time we live in, where there are many other ways of getting the word of the good news out, as we are demonstrating at this very moment by talking to each other about the good news while you are in Italy and I am in the USA.
YOU WROTE:
I'm not quite sure how you claim that the nation of Israel
was a visible organization of god, in the same way that you
are making claim to the JW organization. First, the entire
nation of Israel was brought into a covenant by god, no-one
certainly was required to get baptized into God's good graces,
and more importantly, during that time, Jehovah DID NOT USE
the 'organized' nation of Israel to do his work, he chose
individuals to do his work.
ME:
Not always single individuals. But groups of individials inside
Israel.
See Cheatiti, Merariti, Ferariti, (Leviti)!
Can you show me relavent scriptures please?
YOU WROTE:
Now you are claiming to be in a covenant with god you must
'choose' to be one with god (unlike the nation of Israel)
and that god is using the organization to do his will
(again, different from when he picked Israel as his nation).
Exactly what similiarities exist between your organization
today and the nation of Israel?
ME:
The ancient Israel was not loyal to his commands.
So he promised what you can read in Haggai 2:7.
You didn't answer my question.. Please answer my question.. Not being loyal to his commands has nothing to do with the comparison you are drawing to your organization .vs. the nation of Israel.
YOU WROTE:
I can be true to my conscience and still have the full support
of my friends and family, even if my conscience disagrees
with someone else's interpretation over matters. I'm not viewed
as spiritually weak, but as an individual that has a different
view/interpretation. JW's, on the other hand, seem to be
viewed as spiritually weak if they have different views,
and are told to be careful of association with people spiritually
weak, therefor, if a JW has a different conscientious
interpretation of something than that of the GB, their
relationships with friends and family may and due suffer
because of it. I am free to express my conscience, while the
JW's fear losing their friends and family if they express
theirs. Can you explain to me how this is freedom (The freedom
as expressed in the bible, never shall you be 'yoked' in the
slavery of the law again) , or have I misinterpreted what I've
heard at the KH meetings, and read in your literature? If I
have misinterpreted this, can you explain to me how it really works?
ME:
I'm sorry but we are not talking about that. As i told you in my
previous message i do not want to talk about GB, 144.000 ect..
This is not the subject of the thread.
The subject is: << Does God require a organized Church? >>
Only after have understood this point, we can answer to your
right questions!
Again, I draw you to the fact that the original subject of this thread was the 607 date, and YOU changed it to be if god requires an organization or not. You are doing exactly what every other JW I've ever known has done to me, and not answered questions, or more appropriatly answered selective questions. I have answered every one of your questions, I would appreciate it if you were courteous enough to answer mine!
YOU WROTE:
Jesus made a covenant with all that call his name, and believe
in him. Why is that covenant limited to only the JW's?
ME:
No, no, no! It is not complete!
<<Jesus made a covenant with all that call his name, and believe
in him and MAKE HIS WILL and believe in HIS WORDS>>. Mt 7:21
Now sounds better.
So the covenant is limited to all the people that make his
will (included mt 28:19) and believe in his words (included mt 24:14).
If you believe in Jesus, you will follow his will, and that of his father.. I agree with you 100%.. I find it hard to believe that people will call upon his name, and not do his will, as if you truly call on his name, that means you do his will also.. But I stand corrected, I forgot to include that part.. I do agree with it, and I do know it, I just didn't put it in there.. My bad, sorry!
I think we should understand first if God required an
Organized Church. Only after that, we could speak about the
identity of this Church.
Show me where it states in the bible that an organized church here on Earth is required for Salvation.. Again, just one scripture that mentions salvation REQUIRES an organized church here on earth.. I do believe there is a congregation of Christians, but that congregation is all the people all over the world that call on Jesus name (and understand it, and do his will).. Show me where I am wrong from the bible, with scripture, not with an interpretation of scripture..
YOU WROTE:
Ok, 1 question about this then. Do you believe that the 144,000
is a literal number, however the part in that scripture that
refers to the male/virgin/jew is figurative? Yes/No?
ME:
I'm sorry but we are not talking about that. As i told you in my
previous message i do not want to talk about GB, 144.000 ect..
This is not the subject of the thread.
The subject is: << Does God require a organized Church? >>
Only after have understood this point, we can answer to your
right questions!
Whoa! First, I take offense to your comment about 'right questions'.. I believe there is no such thing as a wrong question.. All questions are ok, are you stating that certain questions should never be asked? If so, then you are going directly against the bible, which states that you should test everything and hold on to what is good and true.. How can you test something if you don't ask questions, and how can you honestly test something if any question is off-limits?
Second, I once again draw your attention to the original subject of this thread, that of the 607 date.. It was YOU that started us talking about an organization here on Earth, and have seemed fixated with that ever since.. I happen to know that you believe the 144,000 is a literal #, however the rest of that scripture is figurative... I am very dissapointed that you refuse to answer my questions, as it is demonstrating to me that you are hiding something, and I don't know what it is... Again, I'm testing for truthfullness here, and you weren't even truthful enough with me to tell me about your figurative interpretation of that scripture..
I ask you once more to forgive me for my late answers!
Not a problem my friend, not a problem at all.. The fact is, you are still answering them, that is scoring BIG points in my book. Thank you! I look forward to your reply!
God bless, and peace be with you
- Itsjustlittleoldme
P.S. Sorry for all the red.. I cannot seem to turn it off
Edited by - itsjustlittleoldme on 10 July 2002 10:5:21
