My chat with Elder Dad. (I'm angry!!)

by home_and_dry 33 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  ShaunaC

  How in the world did this turn into a thread about marriage? Good grief people!!!

  Home, sorry to hear about your dad. Mine is much the same way. I've lost a lot of respect for him as of late. I guess I always figured my mom to be irrational, manipulative and bitchy. But my dad is my daddy! When your father doesn't seem quite the man you thought he was it's quite disheartening...even when it's expected because of the JW thang. My dad too is an elder and I have also come to the conclusion that he's unfortunately an elder first and my dad second.

  ((((((Home)))))))

  OK, now as far as the marriage vs. living in sin thing....

  Don't let anyone tell you what is morally acceptable. Not to you or even your children. What's most important is that your kids learn love and committment. The piece of paper will come when you are ready for it, albeit that mean the money to have your dream wedding or the willingness in your heart to make that step.

  And there is a difference between the "stupid piece of paper" of a marriage license and that of a driver's license. The driver's license is required by law to drive. You do not have to have a marriage license to live together. Infact, I believe common law marriages are given many of the same rights as licensed marriages in some states, if I'm not mistaken. In California, if a person lives with another for over 1 year they are allowed a sort of alimony when the relationship fails if one of the people gave up income to live together.

  As far as the stupid statistics on there being a higher chance of a split if a couple lives together rather than marriage......ah....DUH.....maybe these people realized they were not right for each other and rightfully ended the relationship. Perhaps many of those that get married also realize they are not right for each other but stay together for the kids or out of fear of being alone. Doesn't that make sense?

  In the end, it's each individuals own choice. And no self-righteous JW or ex-JW should tell you otherwise.

  My hopes for a better relationship with your family in time as I have for mine!

  Shauna
• 

  Mulan

  I am not trying to be critical, but it seems utterly ridiculous to have a big whoopdedoo wedding, "white, with all the trimmings", as you put it, when you are living together and have two kids!! It's just a ceremony, and for all the money you would spend, you could be getting something nice for your house, or saving for your children's education.

  My daughter in law's sister was not married and had two kids, 16 and 9. The 9 year old thought his parents were married, and asked some tough questions. They went to Vegas and got married, quietly.

  It is just a piece of paper, isn't it? What does it matter how the wedding happens? I got married in a small home wedding 40 years ago, this December. It's not the wedding that makes the marriage. It's the people.

  I am very sorry your father is giving you a bad time. I totally feel people should live their lives the way they want to. But your wanting a big wedding seems silly, at this point.
• 

  tdogg

  (((((home)))))

  I truly understand how you feel. I recently had "the big talk" with my JW dad (former elder).

  When you feel the time is right, let them have the truth, not in anger, but out of respect for yourself.

  If they cannot respect what you have to say, and who you are as an adult then so be it. Yes they are your only parents but there comes a place in everyones life when you are no longer their "child". One cannot live in "lets just not talk about it" land forever.

  Some are advising you to let it go. Maybe you should for the time being, but if it is going to eat at you, you have to deal with it. I felt better once I did. Im not saying that it helped my relationship with my dad, but now he knows where I stand and I respect myself for having the courage to tell him and I know that he was forced to respect me as well.

  It sounds like you have begun the process already so I can say be calm, be rational, be educated with only the facts. You can be quite effective in discussion by only using the WT material. Good luck in round two.

  Edited by - tdogg on 28 June 2002 20:23:54
• 

  Francois

  I have been married three times. Once to a JW woman. She was the first one and the mother of my children. I am married now still to the third one. We are on our 8th year. I can honestly say that marriage has now fucked up three perfectly good relationships.

  If my current marriage fails, I will never get married again. I will live in sin, but I will never give marriage another chance to screw up a relationship.

  I have allowed myself to be misled by the romantic fallacy and the "live happily ever after" bullshit all my life. I am a natural romantic and idealist. And for my trouble, I've really taken it in the neck. Never again. Living in sin, that's the ticket unless you have children and want to provide for them in a responsible manner. Of course that can be done absent marriage, too. The very word "wedlock" gives me the willies. Think about it. Wed...LOCK. Sounds like a prison sentence, doesn't it?

  Not no more.

  Francois
• 

  BugParadise

  To be honest though, if my kids grow up and choose to 'live in sin', then i wouldnt have a problem with that. i think the stability of the relationship is more important than a piece of paper. For me, i feel its important for my partner and i to marry, but only because or relationship is a good strong tried and tested one and its right for us. I wouldnt expect my kids to see it they same way if thats not how they feel about marriage, but in an ideal world, of course i would love them to be happy and married.

  I think that is smart! You should not get married until you feel the time is right and then when you can make it the special event that you hope it to be. Also with all the trimmings if that is what makes you happy! God Bless you Home!

  ~Bugs
• 

  Dawn

  Home:

  My father was also an elder and it was really hard for me to accept that he would still judge me based on the JW standards. I was DF'd, and even though I was later married and committing no "sin" so to speak - have 2 wonderful children, a good career, etc. etc., the fact that I no longer agreed with JW's and was still DF'd was a "disappointment" to him.

  There were times I really wanted to have it out with him - especially once I started attending another Church and learned so many new TRUTHS. But I kept my mouth shut and made the best of what relationship we had.

  He passed away last October and I am really glad that I did not push those issues with him but nurtured what relationship we had, because I don't have the chance to do it over now. I miss him a lot, but I have good memories now to lean on. I thought this might help you to know.

  As for the "living in sin" - well, we are all sinners. And we're all equally sinners, regardless of what "sin" we've committed or are committing. Personally I feel you should go ahead and get married and not wait to have a big ceremony - but I commit a lot of sins myself that you would probably say "Hey - personally I think....." - know what I mean? I just want to encourage you to look to Christ and work on your relationship with him first - that is the most important.
• 

  JT

  Not to be an ***hole, but what did you expect he'd say?

  @@@@@@@

  I was wondering the same thing, but in reality, this issue has been addressed many times here before, a former jw is "Shocked" to find out that thier jw family'friends don't agree with them or thier life style

  this only highlights what i have often stated, former jw need to educate themselves on the workings of High control groups for at least they will be better informed and have a better idea of how they work so that they can avoid putting themselves in a position to be Emotionally beat upon as this person

  i truly encourage any former jw out there thinking about "Getting it off my chest" to read read read on the power of high control groups.

  Often times it is not the fact that they raised issues or questions with their current jw family it is often THE MANNER and we know that in almost every case the manner that too many confront their family results in conversations just like the one we read.

  often time when a former jw leaves whether they realize it or not they often become the POSTER CHILD for the organization . thier life style in effect becomes a confirmation of Why not to leave

  i have over the past 6 yrs spoken to so many jw who have left and they have often times due to being confided to the rules of the org, feel that they can do WHAT THE HELL they want to

  and for the most part they can --it is their right, but then they act Shocked at the response they get from their jw family. What did you expect???????? FROM A person who has been told 10,000 times anyone who stops meetings , service, wt work has returned to the vomit and rolling in the mire

  so they as it were become the poster child and it makes it almost impossible to have a discussion with them about the org- hell my wife and i left and everyone had us divorce, that james left Lady "C" and married a white woman , we had stole money from the circuit account since i handled the circuit money and built a home and the list went on and no

  so when folks would see us in the mall laughing (at them for being in a dress and stockings and suit and tie at 96 degree weather) they could not believe how our lives were without the meeting , service, etc.

  my wife's cousin went home for like a family reunion, with a child she had not being married and showed up with the man she is living with and they slept in a room together while not married and she actually was shocked that the jw family members rejected here lifestyle DUHHHHHHHHHHHH.

  what i would encourage this person along with anyone else is to read read read and learn the techniques that many here have used effectively to become better equiped to deal mentally with their family.

  first off understanding that they are part of the High Control group is the key for it helps to explain so many things in terms of why they

  1. can't reason

  2. can't think logically

  3. refuse to consider another view

  4 and the list goes on and on

  once a person understands these and other things it helps one to know how to deal with the jw members

  one of the best examples i have seen on getting ones family out sucessfully is the example of AMAZING

  OVER ON RANDY'S SITE his technique is shared, while it may not work in all cases - it provides a vaulble angle of approach that must be considered if one wants to effectively talk with a person who is deeply involved in a high control group

  her dad based on his wt training looked up his daughter as a lost child

  got a baby, no husband, been swallowed up by satan , "living in sin" -- in his mind based on his years of indoctrination she is a TEXTBOOK case of what happens when one "leaves Jehovah"

  so knowing that is how he thinks one would indeed have to address issues about the org in a different manner, unless of course you just wanted to piss him off, but it was clear that she ended up being the one pissed off and emotionally hurt.

  i can't imagine how she must have felt as she put it - she thought that they had a pretty decent relationship, but as happens so many times -- thier wt program files kick in and they fall right in line with wt mindset

  so i hope this lady takes the time to equip herself, for those of us who have been on the net awhile, we have seen so many good folks like this lady get spit on by family when thier wt program files kick in

  we are glad that she came her for here she can vent and we will listen and offer suggestions that many of us have found that helps us to cope.

  i only hopes she listens -for it will make her life and her child's life so much better

  just my 2

  James
• 

  BeautifulGarbage

  Hi Home,

  I understand that the pressure had probably been building, and you decided to let some steam off at your Dad. I know with my own Dad, for years I desperately wanted him to be the loving Father I always dreamed of. I realize, it ain't ever gonna happen.

  As someone once said to me:

  "Why do you keep taking your bucket to a dry well expecting to find water"?

  So, I don't anymore. You are fortunate to be able to have the relationship you do with him. Plus, your children get to see him. Let it be. Keep the Org out of it, best as you can.

  As far as marriage. I'm for getting married before the kids. I think that the piece of paper is an important symbol of public commitment to ones partner. However, I know that some can work without it. Just be sure to have your legal affairs kept up to date and in order! Very important, especially in the US if one is in a long term relationship without marriage. Plus, don't let the money thing stand in your way. The "Princess For A Day" thing is WAY overrated.

  Andee
• 

  blacksheep

  I was quite surprised that anyone butted their nose into your marital status in the first place. That obviously was NOT the point. It's your decision and your partner's, and no one else's. The old "for the sake of the kids?" argument? Since when does a marriage certifiicate guarantee happienss for you OR your kids? Are some of you living in the 50s??? Having seen more divorces, "broken homes" and miserable couples who stay married for whatever reason (they obviously don't get along at all and provide very dysfunctional enviorments for their kids) it really boggles my mind how anyone can feel that the license seems to provide such "good family" insurance and great "example" for the kids.

  But, again, your marital status is not the real issue. If you WERE married, you still wouldn't be accepted OR approved by your dad. Your not following his rules. So you cross off the "not married" mark from the list: you've still got many, many more ways you just won't measure up: the major one being your DA'd, etc.

  As far as the crappola about shunning not being the "right" reason for coming back into the fold, if that's the case, why do the JW's even practise it in the first place? Causes a lot of heartache and pain, so why do it if it only promotes people coming back for the "wrong reasons?"
• 

  rmayer32

  Well it's sad your father said those things to you, however since he is an elder unfortunately it is about what one would expect. At least under the circumstances he does have a relationship with you where many others here have parents who shun them. Good luck to you though and don't let it bother you too much.

  -Rick