About Those Heavenly and Earthly Classes...

by NeonMadman 16 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  NeonMadman

  Maybe this is just something that I never thought of before, and everybody else here will find it old hat. But I was thinking today about the JW teaching about the heavenly class (the 144,000, according to them), and the earthly class (the Great Crowd).

  Specifically, I think that it is ironic how the Watchtower actually reverses what the Bible says about the location of these two classes. The 144,000 are spoken of in the Bible as standing with the Lamb on Mt. Zion. Mt. Zion is very much an earthly location. Yet the Watchtower says they are a heavenly class.

  At the same time, the Great Crowd is said in the Bible to be standing before God's throne (which is in heaven). And Rev. 19:1 speaks of a "great crowd in heaven." But the Watchtower tells us that the Great Crowd is an earthly class.

  Now, I understand that Revelation is a highly figurative book, and that there is room for various interpretations of these verses. So the matter may not be as simple as I have made it appear. But it does seem ironic to me that, as in so many other cases, the Watchtower claims that these scriptures mean just the opposite of what they actually say.

  Edited by - NeonMadman on 1 July 2002 22:11:11
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  NeonMadman

  bttt
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  dungbeetle

  Jesus made it very clear that there were two final abodes for his followers---one at least was heavenly, as he made it clear that THAT was where he was going to live and some of his followers were going with him.

  He made it clear that HE did not select who went to which class, or even what their role was in eace class.

  The pre-Jesus Jews had an earthly hope. The post-Jesus Christians had a heavenly hope.

  But Jesus made it clear, when speaking of the heavely abode, that if individuals did not wish to leave their families behind, they would not be forced to leave them behind. Paul goes on to expand on this thought, stating that the spirit would bear witness to each individual, where they would eventually reside. If someone had strong atachments to their families and did not wish to leave them (Paul seemed to have no such problem) they would not be forced to, and their spirit would bear witness within them.

  Which begs the question of Watchtower: if the palm fronds, the robes, the blood of the lamb are figurative, why is the number of 144,000 literal. Their own statement is: "the twelve tribes of Israel are the wrong twelve tribes" and yet they go on to say the number must be LITERAL!!!

  Watchtower got itself in deep doo doo when their foretold dates came around and nobody had been whisked away to heaven or anywhere else. Then along came the earhtly calss, the Jonadab-Ruth-Naomi blah blah blah class, all of course which foreshadowed Watchtower.

  Good topic.
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  Farkel

  : Specifically, I think that it is ironic how the Watchtower actually reverses what the Bible says about the location of these two classes. The 144,000 are spoken of in the Bible as standing with the Lamb on Mt. Zion. Mt. Zion is very much an earthly location. Yet the Watchtower says they are a heavenly class.

  : At the same time, the Great Crowd is said in the Bible to be standing before God's throne (which is in heaven).

  To make matters worse, they're BOTH earthly locations. God's throne is on the 5th flood of a building on the Hudson River in Brooklyn. You can meet him any Wednesday afternoon. He's invited as a non-participating observer at a special weekly meeting held there. Didn't you know that?

  Farkel
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  NeonMadman

  I have to disagree about the "two destinations" teaching. I don't see anywhere in scripture where there are two classes of saved individuals. The Bible does speak about heaven and earth with regard to the saved, but Revelation 21 depicts the city of God descending from Heaven to Earth, and specifically says that God will dwell there with His people. So I think that the two hopes are actually one and the same. If pre-Christians are of an earthly class, why does Jesus refer in Matthew 8 to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as being in the Kingdom of Heaven?

  I wasn't really trying to start a theological discussion about this as much as point out how the Bible, at least if it is read at face value, exactly contradicts the Watchtower's teaching.
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  NeonMadman

  I hate to get all technical on you Farkel, but it's on the East River, not the Hudson.

  Yeah, I know. Picky, picky, picky...

  Edited by - NeonMadman on 2 July 2002 21:6:49
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  dungbeetle

  The jews obviously believed they were going to be resurrected to earth, and Paul and Jesus and other apostles spoke of going to heaven.

  One plus one is two.

  At the risk of sounding like Larsguy/Joseph Malik, I was speaking of 2 different ABODES, not two CLASSES. I'm not trying to be semantic, I just really don't like using Watchtower terminology.

  The two-class system is Watchtower; the two abode system is biblical. Whether or not it is literal when one goes back to the original bible language, I don't know.

  I understand the concept of picking out one book of the bible and rejecting the other 65 books when discussing one topic, but I don't subsribe to that, and I don't know many people who do.

  I was EXPANDING on your topic of how Watchtower twists scripture --so they can bail themselves out of their own stupidity--not agreeing or disagreeing with you.

  Toodles

  Edited by - dungbeetle on 2 July 2002 21:13:43
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  NeonMadman

  The jews obviously believed they were going to be resurrected to earth, and Paul and Jesus and other apostles spoke of going to heaven.

  One plus one is two.

  I am a father to my daughter. I am a husband to my wife. Therefore, I must be two different people. After all, one plus one is two. Right?

  As I pointed out in my above post, Revelation 21 depicts the city of God coming down from heaven to earth, and tells us that God will dwell there with his people. Therefore, some in the Bible are spoken of as having an earthly hope, because earth is where the heavenly city of God will eventually be. And those who expressed a heavenly hope will be in exactly the same place.

  One plus one is two, unless the two are really different aspects or viewpoints of the same thing.

  Not that I think this is a life-or-death doctrine, by any means. But that's just my opinion; I could be wrong (as Dennis Miller would say).
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  NewWay

  NeonMadman, interesting post, the only problem is that JWs will point to Hebrews 12:22:
  
  "But what you have come to is Mount Zion and the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem where the millions of angels have gathered for the festival." (New Jerusalem Bible)
  
  So, the argument is that the 'Mount Zion' mentioned in Revelation is heavenly, even though it takes its name from an earthly source. I'm not trying to contend with you, just making an observation. However, your reference to a 'great crowd' (Greek = 'megalen ochlou') being in heaven is indisputable (Revelation 19:1). The society has chosen to interpret the 'great crowd' (Greek = 'ochlos polus' - 'crowd many'; which is just another way of saying 'megalen ochlou' - 'large/great crowd') of Revelation 7:9 as being on earth, but someone with no doctrinal bias could reasonably come to the conclusion that both 'great crowd's were the same entity. A scripture that has a bearing on this subject of course is John 10:16 where Jesus speaks about 'other sheep, not of this fold'. Again, an unbiased person who knew about the early activities and experiences of the Christians and had read the Apostle Paul's letters could reasonably come to the conclusion that the 'other sheep' refered to the 'gentile' Christians who by comparison with Jewish converts would constitute a 'great crowd'. Viewing Jesus words in this way is compatible with the fact that Revelation refers on the one hand to 144,000 out of various tribes (as a representation of Israel, not an absolute - thus allowing for the slight difference in the 12 tribes stated at Genesis 49) of Israel, and a 'great crowd' out of all tribes of the earth.
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  NeonMadman

  I understand the interpretation that the JW's place upon the 144,000 based on Hebrews 12:22. I'm not even saying that it's definitely wrong, but then I'm not saying it's right, either. It is, just that, an interpretation. Some would say there is no relationship between Heb 12:22 and Rev 14. But it is a possible interpretation. Also,. any connection between the "other sheep" and the "great crowd" is simply an interpretation. And I understand that interpretations can go all over the place, and sometimes, rightly so. What I found interesting was that the Society's interpretations so often go exactly contrary to a plain reading of the text.