Norwegians Harm Whales

by Magog 51 Replies latest jw friends

LDH

Only when I made a point of criticism about Norway do you begin to make your argument personal rather than stick to facts and issues.

NOT JanH? Nationalistic? NAH!!!!
Lisa
SixofNine

JanH. Extracting all the tang from harpoontang.
Magog

Jan,
I did not respond by personal attacks. You did, and you still do.
Your very first response is a personal attack on the USA. You single out the USA as your attempt to steer from facts and make it as nationalistic issue. Here is what you first said:
Ironically, the US hunts and kills more whales than Norway, but this is done by "traditional" people in Alaska, and then it's no longer wrong. Go figure.
Proportionaly (per capita) this is not true. Japan is the worst of any nation. Why did you not mention Japan? Do you have an ax to grind against America?
I admit I made a generalized attack against ignorance and arrogance against the Americans. I later responded personaly to you. I admit I retaliated.
Obviously you are more comfortable attacking critics as uneducated and unintelligent (which hurts so much coming from a yank) instead of dealing with the actual arguments that I and others posted.
I am attacking the "ad hominem" style of SOME critics, be they educated or not. Your attempt to turn this around to the superiority of your argumentation is a poor tactic. No one questioned your previous arguments. I praised your past performance. The argument was, and is, not about whales. When one looks at my original post, it is obvious I am taking unfair swipes at Norwegians ... and my follow-up explanation demonstrates the intent is to deal with non-American arrogance. That is the issue and argument, to show how non-Americans must sound to Americans.
You and other non-Americans are as guilty of failing to use facts as you allege about others. Even when such critics used facts, just as I did in my opening post, they are often sprinkeled with biased junk against Americans. This is my point Jan, to get you, and other non-Americans, to look in the mirror a little. To realize how unitelligent and biased many arguments sound. That is all.
"Has it occurred to you that is what is giving many Americans a very bad name?"
I am well aware of the reputation Americans have. Has it occured to you that the same thing is giving Norwegians and other nationalities an equally bad name? There are more Americans, God love them, so I suppose it stands to reason that they will get the brunt of more criticism. Ratios, notwithstanding, other nations are equally bad or worse on many fronts. Until we as humans can get our collective act together, we are going to be at each other's throats forever.
If when bringing up a criticism about something that happened where the USA is involved, it would be nice for once to hear the critics deal only with facts, and stop the judgmentalism against an entire nation of 280 million very diverse people.
Do you and other non-Americans not see the point at all? Do you not see the possibility that non-Americans also are biased and often unfairly critical of America, perhaps even hypocritical? Why can you not get back to the issue and deal with the questions? Why, when American are personally attacked, cannot you and others see your way to steer back to the issue and stop the personal attacks on Americans? Why not set the example?
As for being American, I never stated what country I lived in, or my nationality.
Edited by - Magog on 2 July 2002 11:3:28
Nikita

Magog,
This is my point Jan, to get you, and other non-Americans, to look in the mirror a little. To realize how unitelligent and biased many arguments sound. That is all.
I am well aware of the reputation Americans have. Has it occured to you that the same thing is giving Norwegians and other nationalities an equally bad name? There are more Americans, God love them, so I suppose it stands to reason that they will get the brunt of more criticism. Ratios, notwithstanding, other nations are equally bad or worse on many fronts. Until we as humans can get our collective act together, we are going to be at each other's throats forever
Just wanted to say that you have stated your argument extremely well.
Why can't we all just stick to the common bond that brings us all here to this board and not one as divisive as politics?
Nikita
JanH

Magog,
You just keep on digging you in deeper.
Your very first response is a personal attack on the USA. You single out the USA as your attempt to steer from facts and make it as nationalistic issue.
No, it was not a "personal attack" on the US. After all, the USA is not a person. it was the headline you wrote to this thread that made it a nationalistic one, by singling out Norway. Have you forgotten that already? Your attempt to make it sound like I made this discussion one of nationalism is particularly disingenious.
You explicitly made direct attacks on Norway to "get back at" what you perceived to be unfair criticism of the US. After the attack was rebuffed, you backtracked into asserting you only did this to teach someone "a lesson." Your satirical comments was followed up by some disgruntled Americans before I responsed. I pointed out the hypocrisy of the US in criticizing other nations for doing what they do themselves.
More than this, however, I pointed out a number of facts about the topic at hand, whaling, to refute the position of some extremist groups calling themselves environmentalists. If you felt that criticism of US policies were similarily unfair, why did you not do the same? One could be persuaded to believe it is because you do not have the facts on your side, and that this is a knee-jerk response.
Japan is the worst of any nation. Why did you not mention Japan? Do you have an ax to grind against America?
Again, you are totally illogical. Norway and Japan support a sensible hunting for some whale species. Our position is self-consistent. That of the US administration is not.
I also found it very amusing you singled out Norway, considering that the thread you were so peeved off by, at http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=31251&site=3 was started by a Brit and most of the other critics of the American politics of killing hundreds of innocent bystanders were indeed British. Some were Americans. As far as I can see, the only Norwegian participating in that thread was me. So, when you say you posted this thread as a "parody" to show how unreasonable criticisms of the US is, I had to assume it was my criticisms you argued were unfair and built on wrong facts.
Now, I fail to see where you pointed out what my errors of fact or judgment were in that thread. I did myself, in the first message, state that "this latest disaster was undoubtedly an accident" and thus not an act of terrorism as Logical argued. Alas, nobody followed up on my references to other cases where the Bush administration (more or less democratically elected by the American people) seems to deliberately provoke and piss off the rest of the world, counting on nationalists to develop a "US vs them" siege mentality that would help Bush get reelected.
A number of bigoted and hateful messages from Americans on that thread, LDH in particular, did provoke me to make statements that I agree will be unfair to the many Americans who do not agree that non-American lives are worthless. But this does not change the fact that US forces are under orders that continues to kill far more civilians than what reasonable rules of engagement would.
If Norway pursues a policy that I see as unethical I do not hesitate to say so (I just don't agree that whaling is unethical). It seems many Americans subscribe to and openly say "my country right or wrong", a position that is highly unethical and extremely dangerous both to the Americans themselves and to the stability in the rest of the world.
Even if Norway pursued some highly unethical practices, I don't see how this somehow justifies killing children at a wedding in Afghanistan.
I am attacking the "ad hominem" style of SOME critics, be they educated or not. Your attempt to turn this around to the superiority of your argumentation is a poor tactic.
As I have pointed out above, you singled out Norway, and obviously me. Now, I did not use an "ad hominem" style of argumentation. I used facts and arguments, as I do in this thread.
You, on the other hand, do use personal attacks as a form of argumentation. So does a number of Americans in this and other threads. So if you posted this to teach anyone a sort of "lesson", both the message and its addressee was wrong.
Do you and other non-Americans not see the point at all? Do you not see the possibility that non-Americans also are biased and often unfairly critical of America, perhaps even hypocritical?
Your problem is that you only assert that these criticisms are unfair. You do nothing to substantiate your position.
Sure, I totally agree that many criticisms of Americans are unfair. And I have said so many times. Alas, the rabid style of some very vocal American patriots on this board tends to make even your friends ashamed to say anything positive about the USA. When many people are so overly self-rightous, they don't need others to pat them on the back.
- Jan
Edited by - JanH on 2 July 2002 11:49:0
LDH

I think Magog has a great point.
When the "Collective Conscience" decrees the US is wrong and Americans are assholes, JanH is quick to jump on the bandwagon.
When the "Collectice Conscience" decrees Norway has done something wrong, JanH is quick to point out that the "Collective Conscience" is in error. And in fact, Norway is doing nothing wrong. It's just poor reporting.
Tit for tat.
Nikita, we choose to discuss politics because it interests us. When we were JW we were told we must remain politically neutral (unless you live in Mexico, har har). This, by a religion founded on Marx's principles of Classes, LOL.
Now we find that we are free to discuss ANYTHING and no one will tell us otherwise.
That's why we discuss politics.
Lisa
LB

Ironically, the US hunts and kills more whales than Norway, but this is done by "traditional" people in Alaska, and then it's no longer wrong. Go figure.
Yes I believe last year they got 4 whales, way more than Norway.
Jan nationalism runs deep in your veins too doesn't it? Suddenly you've jumped to your nations defense. Including blaming America for the single tribe of native Alaskans that are allowed to hunt whales. Trust me, if such a thing were to be put to a vote here, there would be no whale hunting.
We would rather hunt deer regardless of how cute they are.
JanH

Lisa,
During WW2, it was common for German satirists to point out unethical practices by the British (especially during the colonian era). Some of the criticisms were surely justified, unlike your criticism of Norwegian whaling. Yet, I don't see how it justified German atrocities.
The difference is that some of the criticisms of the US was well-founded. Yet some americans, especially yourself, made knee jerk responses showing you were more bigoted than even I would suspect.
But of course, to rabid nationalists like you facts do not matter at all. And neither do killing a few hundred "towel-heads". After all, in your narrow world of hate, if any American innocent is killed, it justifies killing any random "towel-head" as payback. If the attackers were Saudis and the you kill some Afghan children (can you even point out Afghanistan on a map?), that doesn't matter. It is just one grey mass of sub-humans to you and other bigots.
- Jan
dubla

jan-
in lisas defense, she pointed out several times (on that thread) that she did not intend for the words "towel-head" to be taken as her own feelings, and this was backed up by an explanation from h.s., and even then acknowledged by southland who originally called her on it. why bring it back up here as if she was truly trying to use a racial slur? you continue to surprise me today.......
as far as the "bigot" comments go, remember that bigots stereotype others. with that thought in mind, go back and re-read your comments on the other thread.
aa
Edited by - dubla on 2 July 2002 12:18:16
LDH

Jan, my sarcasm must have not come off as brilliantly as I thought it did.
NO I do NOT approve of killing Muslims indiscriminately. NO I don NOT refer to MUSLIMS as towel-heads. I was merely saying that according to you, that's how all of America views Muslims.
NOTHING could be further from the truth. Anyone that knows me knows that I would gladly sacrifice my life for the life of a child, any child. I find children to be the victims of the actions of a few. Including the innocent children in the day-care center of the Alfred P Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City.
Are *YOU* personally responsible for the decisions Norwegian leaders make? Hell no! Neither was *I* riding in that plane that bombed and killed the wedding party. THEREFORE I take NO responsiblity other than to say, I support the actions of my country. I find the deaths of innocents to be inevitable. A sorry, terrible tragedy. I STILL support the actions of my country.
I would rather it be thirty innocent dead than 4,000--period.
And YES Jan, not only can I find Afghanistan on a map, but probably any other country you'd choose to name. I have traveled the world probably more extensively than 95% of Americans.
You have proven my point. Just because I find whaling to be distasteful and barbaric, doesn't make it so.
I still love you.
Lisa

Norwegians Harm Whales

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