Jan,
You just keep on digging you in deeper.
Your lead in is humorous. First bias the situation before you make your comments. Am I doing that? Yes, to make my point.
No, it was not a "personal attack" on the US. After all, the USA is not a person. it was the headline you wrote to this thread that made it a nationalistic one, by singling out Norway. Have you forgotten that already? Your attempt to make it sound like I made this discussion one of nationalism is particularly disingenious.
It was a form of 'Ad Hominem' .. to deflect from the issue surrounding Norway, and start finding fault elsewhere. Again, the concept is to illustrat how many non-Americans must sound to Americans.
You explicitly made direct attacks on Norway to "get back at" what you perceived to be unfair criticism of the US. After the attack was rebuffed, you backtracked into asserting you only did this to teach someone "a lesson." Your satirical comments was followed up by some disgruntled Americans before I responsed. I pointed out the hypocrisy of the US in criticizing other nations for doing what they do themselves.
You are assuming motive. The criticism of American actions in Afghanistan is fair. The stereotypical style of blaming all Americans, and assuming that America must always be guilty and wrong is what troubles me.
More than this, however, I pointed out a number of facts about the topic at hand, whaling, to refute the position of some extremist groups calling themselves environmentalists. If you felt that criticism of US policies were similarily unfair, why did you not do the same? One could be persuaded to believe it is because you do not have the facts on your side, and that this is a knee-jerk response.
Jan, again, you are totally missing the objective of the post. I quoted a Rueters article about Norwegian whaling, and then my comments were absurdly stereotypical of Norwegians as a parody. The issue is not about whaling. It is intended to show how many comments sound to Americans. Placing the shoe on the other foot for a change. Why is this concept, even when repeated to you, so hard for you to grasp?
Again, you are totally illogical. Norway and Japan support a sensible hunting for some whale species. Our position is self-consistent. That of the US administration is not.
Again, if you look at my very first response to everyone's comments, I clearly state the purpose, issue, and concept. It is not about whaling, but about how non-Americans sound.
I also found it very amusing you singled out Norway, considering that the thread you were so peeved off by, at http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=31251&site=3 was started by a Brit and most of the other critics of the American politics of killing hundreds of innocent bystanders were indeed British. Some were Americans. As far as I can see, the only Norwegian participating in that thread was me. So, when you say you posted this thread as a "parody" to show how unreasonable criticisms of the US is, I had to assume it was my criticisms you argued were unfair and built on wrong facts.
Yes, I singled out Norway. So what? I never stated I was peeved off regarding any thread. That is your assumption without facts. Whether it was started by a Brit is irrelevant, and obfuscates the issue of my post, which is another poor argumentation style.
Now, I fail to see where you pointed out what my errors of fact or judgment were in that thread. I did myself, in the first message, state that "this latest disaster was undoubtedly an accident" and thus not an act of terrorism as Logical argued. Alas, nobody followed up on my references to other cases where the Bush administration (more or less democratically elected by the American people) seems to deliberately provoke and piss off the rest of the world, counting on nationalists to develop a "US vs them" siege mentality that would help Bush get reelected.
I did not comment on that thread. I am not interested in that topic. It is irrelevant to my post. Again, more obfuscation coming from you.
A number of bigoted and hateful messages from Americans on that thread, LDH in particular, did provoke me to make statements that I agree will be unfair to the many Americans who do not agree that non-American lives are worthless. But this does not change the fact that US forces are under orders that continues to kill far more civilians than what reasonable rules of engagement would.
I cannot deny that Americans display bigotry and ignorance at times, maybe many times. My point is that those who frequently highlight this American fault fail to see theat they themselves are doing the same thing. Simply put, it is hypocrisy.
If Norway pursues a policy that I see as unethical I do not hesitate to say so (I just don't agree that whaling is unethical). It seems many Americans subscribe to and openly say "my country right or wrong", a position that is highly unethical and extremely dangerous both to the Americans themselves and to the stability in the rest of the world.
I have not read any post where Americans have said such a thing. The statement, "My Country Right or Wrong" is a cliche' that is over used by critics. I find Americans very charming in their ability to be most introspective and self-deprecating. They blame themselves far to much, and wallow in serious guilt. No wonder they have so many problems with depression. Even my comments now are a bit stereotypical, because America is a large, diverse nation with many subcultures and ethnic structures.
Even if Norway pursued some highly unethical practices, I don't see how this somehow justifies killing children at a wedding in Afghanistan.
I never once equated to two situations. You did. You conscience must be bothering you to keep bringing this up and trying to equate the Afghani situation with Norwegian whales. I was only addressing how non-Americans sound to Americans, and found the Norwegian whaling issue a convenient platform to draw my comparison. Why is it so hard for you to stick to the issue of this post, without having to drag in something from an unrelated post?
As I have pointed out above, you singled out Norway, and obviously me. Now, I did not use an "ad hominem" style of argumentation. I used facts and arguments, as I do in this thread.
You immediately used a form of 'ad hominem' by deflecting greater guilt to the USA. Why did you single out the USA? Why not stick to the issue of Norwegian whaling? You obviously did see the concept I was trying to highlight through my use of parody, and you are ignoring it.
You, on the other hand, do use personal attacks as a form of argumentation. So does a number of Americans in this and other threads. So if you posted this to teach anyone a sort of "lesson", both the message and its addressee was wrong.
I am not using personal attack in the issue. I admit for a second time retaliating. I was not trying to teach anyone. I am trying to point out an issue of hypocrisy.
Your problem is that you only assert that these criticisms are unfair. You do nothing to substantiate your position.
The substantiation are your responses and those of others who agree with you. It is not so much whether the criticisms are unfair as you assert, but how they sound to Americans. Hence, my post was to show this in reverse by simply using Norwegians as the vehicle to make the point. Your response shows me that you are more equipped at debating rather than understanding. You and other non-Americans like to say how much Americans do not understand. The whole basis of this demonstrates the inability of many non-Americans to see their own hyprocrisy.
Sure, I totally agree that many criticisms of Americans are unfair. And I have said so many times. Alas, the rabid style of some very vocal American patriots on this board tends to make even your friends ashamed to say anything positive about the USA. When many people are so overly self-rightous, they don't need others to pat them on the back.
The acknowledgement is appreciated, even if late. One of the cultural aspect of Americans I have come to appreciate is their not-so-subtle contrarian style. They sound far more rabid and radical than they really mean. If one takes time to understand their culture, one finds them far more kind, moderate, and generous in their real views. Non-Americans must learn to understand other cultures like the American culture, and appreciate them for what they are. Study them, and accept them as just another variation in the world community. I fear that as long as this bias and bigotry continues against Americans, our world will not really evolve to new levels anytime soon.
