Anti-Evolutionists Wanted !!!!

by Francois 163 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  IslandWoman

  Francois,

  I think that the drive to anthropomorphize God is irresistible - and likely leads to inaccurate results.

  To the contrary, to think that God has left no way to understand him, no evidence of himself in his creation and otherwise, is what will more likely lead to "inaccurate results".

  Simplicity is the greatness of creation, simplicity couched in seemingly complex systems. It is these systems and their core simplicity that expose the genius of God and I believe that in that shear wisdom of creation is also the key to the beginning of understanding it's maker.

  Think of it. For us it takes humility and openness of mind to examine the world lower than us in order to understand the one higher than us. This is a fitting lesson from a father.

  IW

  (I don't know why highlighter keeps coming on, any suggestions to correct this would be appreciated, thanks)
• 

  pseudoxristos

  Frank,

  Is there a reward/punishment condition to this God/Evolution System. If so, what is required of Man to receive the reward. Are those that have had the God experience in a better position to receive some reward? What's in it for me and what do I have to do? Is there a set time frame with a definite end. I'm just looking for a few more details.

  pseudoxristos
• 

  D wiltshire

  IW,

  I don't know why highlighter keeps coming on, any suggestions to correct this would be appreciated, thanks

  Click the end formating symbol it look like an eraser it's the 9th item up top,
• 

  IslandWoman

  D wiltshire!

  THANK YOU!!

  IW
• 

  JanH

  hannibal,

  what would need to happen for you to believe in God?

  Some evidence would be a good start. Actually, since a claim that God exists is such a huge claim, it should require some very solid evidence, but most skeptics would actually be satisfied with just a bit of evidence, since in many ways believing in a god that will make everything good for us is so emotionally satisfying.

  That is, of course, one of two main reasons people believe in God in the first place. The other one is that we live in a society where belief in God has been near universal until quite recently.

  I cannot see other reasons why intelligent and educated people retain a belief in God.

  It is a fallacy in logic which I call "the golden mean" that persuades people to believe that when two extremes are opposing each other, then the truth must be somewhere in the middle. That is not at all the case. In many cases, any middle-of-the-ground position is logically inconsistent, and one of the extremes happen to be right. To use an old example, if two people argue if a woman is pregnant, then one of them is fully right and the other is fully wrong. Also, either God exists or God does not exist. There is no middle ground. In the same way, either all species on this planet share common descent, and thus evolution is a fact, or they are not.

  Many religious people here seem to believe in evolution a little. It's like they know the overhwlming evidence for evolution, but somehow they don't believe that the theory of evolution is enough to explain life. Somehow, God had to sneak out of his tiny gap from time to time and nudge evolution along the right track.

  Common descent is an established fact. Religious people should simply deal with this fact and make the attempts they can to bring their religion consistent with established facts. If they can't, the only rational position is to reject the religious beliefs.

  The theory of evolution is also a solidly established scientific explanation. Those who believe otherwise should really read up on this topic. The various organisms on this planet evolved through descent with modification, and natural selection has been the main force behind evolution.

  Now, the problem with a creator-god in all this is that natural selection is a naturalistic mechanism, and it neither needs nor has any use for creator-gods. To believe that God is somehow the guiding force behind evolution is logically inconsistent with the theory itself. You cannot have it both ways. If we have e.g. opposing thumbs because evolutionary pressure made our ancestors evolve that way, it cannot at the same time be because God willed us to have opposing thumbs. The same goes for eyes, our brain or any other feature, including properties that religion like to claim a monopoly on, namely our sense of ethics.

  While I surely appreciate that Christians are coming to terms with reality and accept evolution, I cannot help wondering if they really understand that many of them (but not all) believe in two mutually conflicting ideas. It is like children who come to realize that its their parents who put Christmas gifts under the tree, but yet retain a belief that Santa Claus, after all, is the "spiritual force" behind the giving.

  I recommend two different essays on the Net about the problems evolution cause for Christian theism:

  • Creationism to Universal Darwinism: Evolution and Religion
  • The "know-nothings", the "know-alls", and the "no-contests" by Richard Dawkins

  Especially the latter essay by Dawkins would fit in perfectly on this thread.
  

  - Jan
• 

  Francois

  FalseChrist - No reward/punishment system, no deadlines. And no, a person who has had the experience is in no better position for anything. No boxtops, nothing to mail in, no salesman will call.

  What's in it for you? Same as for everyone else; survival. It's all very simple really.

  Island Woman - Perhaps I'm being dense, but what has this to do with the topic at hand? Maybe I missed something. But as for your assertion that all in nature is simple, I don't buy it, not when you get down to the elementary particle level. Quantum physics, which deals with the smallest [known] particles is anything but simple.

  And on the other end, the vast fastness of the universe of universes with all its "missing" matter, black holes, colliding galaxies, and things that we have not dreamed of isn't simple - to me at least.

  If I may ask, where are you on the idea that evolution is a divine technique? Possible? Not possible? And why would creationists be fast to deny it; deny even the possibility that it might just be the case? Why is that objectionable? Do you know?

  I remember being a JW and visiting for the first time the area of upper East Tennessee. It's a strange place to be sure: fought for the union, votes republican, was dry alcohol-wise up into the middle sixties, etc. One of the biggest objections the local Baptists had about us was that we had put out the burning fires of hell. Now, this is one of the only things I think the JWs got right. But, man, those folks up there in those hollows, and sylvan glades and bosky dells didn't appreciate that a bit. JWs were referred to as "No Hellers" or should I say "filthy No Hellers." I guess they liked their punishments hot. But you'd think people would be happy about that. In the same way, it would seem that the religious would be relieved to find out that God uses evolution to get the job of producing animals with very complex brains that are capable of receiving a loaner segmentation of cosmic mind and can therefore be endowed with free will. But Nooooooooooo. Why is that, do you think?

  Francois
• 

  pseudoxristos

  Francois,

  Sounds good to me. I don't even have to believe it and I will survive. Even though I am Atheist/Agnostic there is still that little hope that in the end that we can somehow survive death.

  From my own experience my reluctance of giving up on the belief in a burning Hell stems from the thought that if there is no Hell then maybe there is also no heaven. I also did not want to rework my whole belief system. I might discover something that I really didn't want to know. But, in the end my desire to know once and for all what is truth and what is fiction has lead me to the Atheist/Agnostic position. Don't make me rework my belief system again.

  pseudoxristos
• 

  hannibal

  Janh,

  " Some evidence would be a good start"

  Have you looked in the mirror lately?Is that not evidence?!

  What if God did show himself stood up said 'I am God, and this

  is how I want it' Would man in general say 'Thank you God,

  now I know how to serve you the right way', Would man serve God

  out of love or fear? Would we really have freewill?Not really.

  I think man would feal like 'pet', fearful of every step thay take.

  I know I cant tell you anything you havent heard, and I am just

  'a babe' when it comes to this 'free thinking' thing, I have a

  lot to learn.Thanks for the links I will check them out.

  Jan, Last thing is there any answer through evelution for the Body healing it self?

  Francois,

  I do think there is a posibility of creation through evelution.
• 

  QUANTUM

  francios: and others

  [1 COR 1:20-29]
  Where is the wise? where is the a scribe where is the b disputer of this c world ? hath not God made foolish the d wisdom of this e world ?
  
  For after that in the wisdom of God the world a by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of b preachin to save them that believe.
  
  For the Jews require a a signe and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
  
  But we a preach Christ b crucified , unto the Jews a c stumblingblock , and unto the Greeks foolishness;
  
  But unto them a which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the b power of God, and the c wisdom of God.
  
  Because the a foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
  
  For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the a flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are b called :
  
  But God hath chosen the a foolish things of the world to b confound the wise; and God hath chosen the c weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
  
  And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
  
  That no flesh should glory in his presence.

  "What we have here is a failure to communicate...."

  My poor spelling shouldn't be an issue but I'll make a better effort in proof reading my posts.

  First of all, francios, you make a blanket statement which is totally ungrounded. That religion always looses to science. I can turn that 180 and ask the same of you. Actually, religion used to win all of the arguments but has lost some of it's zing lately not just because of science itself but also politics. The scientific elitists of the world whether in universities, medias or what have you, temporarily hold the upper ground. Grants are more often than not, given to these intelectuals for their compliance with the popular view. Few theologians with solid scientific background get in on these elitist forums to present their finds. However that does not mean they don't have forums of their own and carry weighty arguments. But winning or loosing is a matter of degree, beliefs, and perception. I personally believe that science is beginning to catch up with certain theological truths and will finally support what the revealed word of GOD has declared all along. ie. Mankind are the literal offspring of God {virtually of the same race of beings}; that the many forms of life came by a creation which took place over a period of time { which is clearly stated in the original hebrew ...not 7 days but 7 time periods}; That all things were created spiritually before they were created temporally ( clearly advanced in scripture); And that Jesus Christ was the Creator of all things under the direction of His Father and our Father.

  The "cave man" and dinosaur thing...why does that have to do with whats recorded in the Bible. God is a creator. the fact that we are on a planet that has been around a very long time with a fossil record we don't understand on how or why they are here ..has absolutely nothing to do with genesis.

  Quantum!!!!

  Edited by - QUANTUM on 7 July 2002 17:50:40
• 

  JanH

  hannibal,

  Have you looked in the mirror lately?Is that not evidence?!

  No.

  Of course, if you believe that fairies make it rain, you would point to the rain as evidence for fairies. But I hope you can see the error of that argument and, then, your own error.

  What if God did show himself stood up said 'I am God, and this is how I want it' Would man in general say 'Thank you God, now I know how to serve you the right way', Would man serve God out of love or fear? Would we really have freewill?Not really. I think man would feal like 'pet', fearful of every step thay take.

  This is a self-defeating argument. First, of course we would have free will. Perhaps more people would serve God. I see no evidence that it's much other than fear (for hell, or armegeddon, dying, or whatever) that makes many people "serve god" now. Why should the level of evidence be relevant?

  If God exists but hides, the logical conclusion would be that God wants neither worship nor attention. Perhaps just atheists go to heaven?

  Jan, Last thing is there any answer through evelution for the Body healing it self?

  I don't seriously see how that can be an argument against evolution.Evolution is about survival and even more propagating genes by leaving offspring. Of course it is a huge advantage for organisms to keep alive by healing itself from injury and fighting off attacks from microbes.

  - Jan

  Edited by - JanH on 7 July 2002 17:54:31