To Applaud or Throw Up - Which?

by metatron 21 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Farkel

  I heard N.H. Knorr say, from the Yankee Stadium podium, that it was better to be a short-order cook than to really get an education!!!

  Knorr died of brain cancer. I have to wonder why that cancer didn't starve to death first.

  Farkel
• 

  metatron

  Whatever killed Knorr had a mountain of negativity to feed on.
  You wonder how anyone could get thru the day being so miserable.

  metatron
• 

  Francois

  Henious - If I had to pick the top three most important books I've ever read, The True Believer would be right there.

  Francois
• 

  dobby

  I recently had a discussion with a JW friend about spanking. I just made an off-hand remark about how many JW kids were abused because their parents were taught spanking is o.k. by God and then used that as a guise for abuse. I didn't see how my comment was any big deal, I mean this happens in a lot of religions.

  She emphatically disagreed with me, even saying " I never heard the brothers say in any talk you should spank your kids. How can you say our religion is responsible for kids being abused.!"

  I was dumbfounded! Come on what KH did she go to? However, check this out...

  SHE is in denial (we went to the same KH), however if you are a newer JW and never read the green Family book (which says spanking is o.k.) you may agree with her because the blue Family book completely omitted any mention of spanking your kids.

  Ah the subtle transformations...
• 

  Farkel

  dobby,

  There's a lot more proof that the society has encouraged parents to whack their kids besides the Family book.

  Here's enough to have your friend swallow her words:

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=15771&site=3

  Farkel

  Edited by - Farkel on 5 July 2002 17:34:43
• 

  Sabine

  Well, in my 35+ year affiliation with the cult, I heard the following response to "new light" that reversed jw positions where many were adversely affected:

  "So what, if we suffered because of the organization being "over-zealous", what better reason to suffer?! It's better to suffer trying to do god's will, than not try at all...blah, blah, blah."

  They will minimize the damage, and pat themselves on the back for being super martyrs. In my opinion, the die-hard cult members could have god come down and personally tell them they are full of it, and they will STILL find a way to put a positive spin on it.

  Sabine-of the throw up class
• 

  waiting

  hello Craig,

  Nice to meet you. Interesting reading you've been doing - thanks for the referrals.

  Quote: It is historically demonstrable and sociologically inevitable that as religious (read JW) membership increases, influence over/stimulation of the individuals will diminish even as the core of the "saving remnant" disappears. - craig

  Perhaps I'm reading this wrong - or is it saying that as a religion becomes larger, the influence over the individual lessens? Interesting thought. I've read similiar - much like a corporation normally doesn't respond to it's employees as a family-run business does. However, in this case, the WTBTS seems well advised to at least come up to the questionable standards of the "average religion" - thus saving lives and allowing relative freedom to its followers.

  Interesting posts I had with a Ph.d psych here a while back. He was putting forth statistics which showed the WT actually is decreasing in converts and most likely will continue to decrease - thus showing they're not God's Chosen.

  I countered with the jw standard response that "It's fortold that in the Last Days, there would be a *cooling off of the love* of the greater number - and we would expect this to happen. Thus proving Bible prophecy."

  He countered with the point that there's still rapid growth in Third World Countries - and jw's still adamently state they're a fast growing religion. I countered with the jw standard response that "That shows that jw's have Jehovah's blessing."

  He sputtered (paraphrasing) "You can't have it both ways! You can't be numerically declining or increasing and be fulfilling bible prophecy either way!" I smugly countered "You can if you're a jw."
• 

  onacruse

  Hi Waiting!

  No surprise that I didn't start reading such non-WTS literature until I started college (1993, 30+ yrs after baptism). Took some elective courses (sociology, philosophy, history) only to satisfy degree requirements (expected nothing but "worldly garbage"), but how my mind was opened!!!! Literally a shocking experience. How little (read nothing) did I know how socially stunted I was/still am.

  I am now all the more intrigued by the sociology of religion. Reading and quoting books is not my goal, but e.g. Social Development (L.T. Hobhouse; George Allen & Unwin, 1924, 1966) says "...sociology is not confined to the description of consequences arising from psychological laws. It has to do with the modifications in the minds of men themselves through their contact with each other." (Emphasis added). This very modification (IMHO) is inexorably occuring among JWs, including both their doctrine and governance. It can't be stopped, almost has a life of its own.

  So also with Adventists: Seventh-day Adventists Believe...(Review and Herald Publishing Association, 1988), ch 24 (The Second Coming of Christ) does not even mention 1844, except for a small-print dateline (p. 347). As we all know, this date was a cornerstone for their movement, but the "modifications in the minds of men themselves" enabled them both to grow significantly in response to that date, accept/justify decline as that date passed into history, and still maintain a significant (although now relatively stagnant) membership.

  For JWs, the "beginning of the end" in 1914 will never go away, but its meaning is being accommodated. Centralization of authority (1938-44) will not be reversed, but it is being modified. Disfellowshipping (1952) and the blood issue (1964) will not be disposed, but individual JWs increasingly apply those doctrines as they see fit for their personal needs. Ups and downs in membership are transient events in reaching an equilibrium amongst these conflicting social forces.

  Tired of my soap-box?

  Christian love,

  Craig
• 

  waiting

  hey Craig,

  Many (o-so-many) moons ago, I took Sociology and learned about the Hutterites (sp?) which are much like the Amish. Their outlook on life was so austre that they didn't even allow anything but somber colors to be worn. The older men noticed the itch to leave in the younger generation......and accomodation began to occur (as you'd say). They *finally* allowed the young girls to wear colored ribbons in their hair. It was enough for that generation - and this was pre-1960.

  I would assume that future accomodations were made also to keep the young. But I would also assume that most of the young left or that the Hutterites slowly passed into antiquity as a lot of small groups.

  You might know where this paraphrased quote started, it was brought to H20 forum a couple of years ago (several of us have kicked ourselves for not saving the whole speech by an English member of Parliment).

  Quote (kinda): "All organizations change from their original concept. They have to in order to survive. The organization starts out being a small group of people with a common cause or need. Slowly, as it gets larger, the needs change into the needs of the organization instead of the people. In order to continue to grow, the organization needs power to sustain itself. The most readily available power to feed upon is through it's own people.

  Thus, be ready to leave any organization within five years of joining - as it's not the same organization that you joined originally."

  Of course, being originally written by a politician, it was 2 pages long.

  I took Psych last semester, and much was said about Group Think, etc. When we studied the chapter on how people blend their thoughts on pain & punishment (proven through experiments) - the class didn't want to believe it. I'd already done some reading on it so knew what the prof. was going for. He said it's hard to accept that humans are so tragically flawed, to accept that, and to continue trying.

  I believe the WTBTS is tragically flawed, just like the rest, and will continue. However, I don't think they're trying to continue to try - just to survive, like any organization. They've gone way past the desire to continue to try to be better people, imho.

  My son took world history last semester and fell in love with it. Who would have thought? Btw, I'm a *walk away* jw woman of 30 yrs. Came into the org. when I was 19. Should have stayed in college back then, eh?

  waiting
• 

  somebody

  Thought provoking and bringing back memories, metatron!

  Here is just one example of how the "society"{From now on, I refuse to capitalize that word and not capitalize Holy Spirit so as NOT TO IMITATE THE WATCHTOWER BIBLE AND TRACT sOCIETY} "told kids not to go to college".

  8/15/87 Watchtower

  [bold]What Advice to Follow[/bold]

  9 Your life is shaped not only by those you hold in esteem but often also by relatives and friends who, as they put it, 'want the best for you.' 'You have to earn a living,' they may say. [bold]So they may advise you to get a college or university education[/bold] to prepare yourself for a well-paying profession. 'The Bible writer [bold]Luke was a physician,' they may note, 'and the apostle Paul was instructed by the Law teacher Gamaliel.' (Colossians 4:14; Acts 5:34; 22:3) Yet, analyze carefully such advice.[/bold]

  10 The physician Luke never encouraged Christians to follow his former career example by becoming a doctor; rather, Luke held forth the lives of Jesus and his apostles for imitation. Evidently [bold]Luke became a physician before he learned about Christ but afterward put his Christian ministry first in life. The situation was similar with Paul. Rather than encouraging others to imitate him as he had imitated Gamaliel, Paul wrote: "Become imitators of me, even as I am of Christ." So highly did Paul value the knowledge of Christ that he said that by comparison he considered his former pursuits "as a lot of refuse."[/bold]-1 Corinthians 11:1; Philippians 3:8.

  11 Remember, [bold]sentiment can cause even those who love you to give poor advice.[/bold]

  Of course, if you showed this to JWs, they would say that this is only "encouragement" fom the WBTS. But if you see the questions that go with the paragraphs, it tells all. It states that "getting an education at a college or university" would be "wordly advice". That speaks volumes to JWs, eh?

  9. What worldly advice may those give who seemingly want the best for you?

  10. What advice did Luke and Paul provide, and what can be said about their pre-Christian activity?

  I'm wondering now if even what he said about Luke no longer being a physicial after he became a Christian or Paul being a Law expert. For I know he was a Pharisee and said to "Become imitators of me". When I was a JW, I noticed that I was FORCED to imitate Paul, over imitating Christ Jesus. The difference between the two, according to the Bible, is that one was an apostle, one is the Savior.

  Regarding Child ABUSE:

  Thank you Farkel, for the link to that IMPORTANT thread.

  I wish to add this:

  Kingdom Ministry 5/ 88

  The first thing a child should learn from [bold]infancy[/bold] is that he goes to the Kingdom Hall to listen. [bold]But if he is given things to keep him occupied, such as toys or food, or if he is allowed to play at his seat, will he learn to listen and appreciate why we attend meetings at the Kingdom Hall?[/bold] Admittedly, some children are more attentive than others. However, [bold]when a child misbehaves, the wise parent will correct him and lovingly train him to listen, not by bribing him with candy or toys, but by applying the discipline of God's Word.[/bold]

  What would be the "discipline of God's Word" to be applied from INFANCY? for "crying" BABIES, and CHILDREN in order to FORCE them to LISTEN to 5 hours a week of DEEP BIBLE STUDY?

  *** Watchtower 3/1/88 24-5 Responsible Childbearing in This Time of the End ***
  

  It has sometimes been observed that whereas some Christian men progress spiritually, even to the point of being assigned privileges in the congregation, their wives become spiritually weak. Why? Often it is because their young children prevent the wives from concentrating at meetings, doing [Bold]deep Bible study[/Bold], or sharing in a large measure in the witnessing work.

  Many Christian fathers do their utmost to share the load of looking after the children. They take their full share in seeing that their children remain quiet during congregation meetings. [bold]IF THEIR BABY STARTS TO CRY, OR IF THEIR CHILD BECOMES BOISTEROUS[/Bold], they in their turn will [bold]take it outside for appropriate discipline.[/bold]

  Peace To You All,
  Gwen

  editing to learn the new procedure for quoting and bolding and stuff. edit #3 doh!

  edit #4:

  {sigh} I knew I should have taken wordly advice and gone to college. I'll be go to hell if I can figure out how to bold! I'll use all caps for bolding till I learn.

  Edited by - somebody on 6 July 2002 11:12:29

  Edited by - somebody on 6 July 2002 11:13:56

  Edited by - somebody on 6 July 2002 11:19:33

  Edited by - somebody on 6 July 2002 11:39:51